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 Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter 
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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nrp wrote:
CyberVillain wrote:
brantlew wrote:
@NickK: Just mouse emulation - so not as good as the custom 3-axis support that Doom will have but at least generic enough that any FPS could be used with it.


I sent a PM to John C and asked if he could supply me with a SDK for Doom 3 BFG so we could have 3 axis native support in FreePIE for Doom 3 (As a separate plugin) but he never got back to me :/
If we had that any tracker could be used not just the Hillcrest (Which is not sold outside the US as far as I can tell)

I suspect it would not be impossible to emulate Hillcrest's devices. They publish the HID descriptors they use.


Thats why I asked John for a public interface for Doom 3 BFG so that I can write a plugin for Doom 3 in FreePIE (Not part of FreePIE core but a separate download), or use a open source interface like Freetrack, but thats Windows only and I do not think a Linux guy like John would like that

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Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:08 am
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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profvr wrote:
CyberVillain wrote:
[
If we had that any tracker could be used not just the Hillcrest (Which is not sold outside the US as far as I can tell)


They will happily ship them to Europe (and thus probably elsewhere), but both times we ordered some they insisted on sending by courier, which added $100 to the price (though we did get them in 48 hours!).


100 USD plus Swedish taxes, that would make it around 250 dollars :P

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Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:10 am
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Two Eyed Hopeful

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CyberVillain wrote:
profvr wrote:
CyberVillain wrote:
[
If we had that any tracker could be used not just the Hillcrest (Which is not sold outside the US as far as I can tell)


They will happily ship them to Europe (and thus probably elsewhere), but both times we ordered some they insisted on sending by courier, which added $100 to the price (though we did get them in 48 hours!).


100 USD plus Swedish taxes, that would make it around 250 dollars :P


I think they wanted around $160 to send one to Aus. I decided to wait for a RIFT kit.


Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:21 am
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@CyberVillain: Instead of emulating the USB driver, it would be easy to do a DLL swap of libfreespace. Carmack probably uses that library like everyone else and you could short circuit those calls to insert your own tracker.


Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:07 am
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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brantlew wrote:
@CyberVillain: Instead of emulating the USB driver, it would be easy to do a DLL swap of libfreespace. Carmack probably uses that library like everyone else and you could short circuit those calls to insert your own tracker.


True! Thats probably pretty easy, we will see if he uses them

By the way, check out the FreePIE forums, lots of code checked in today :P

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Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:14 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Has Palmer said anything about the kickstarter?

It's been almost 3 weeks now......whats happening? :|


Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:14 pm
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New rule: if you aren't Mr Palmer or JC, don't post in this thread. It'll save a lot of angst! :)


Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:23 pm
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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nosignal wrote:
Could you (or someone else here) tell me how/where you get your lenses - maybe you have documented this already and could send me a link? I would also be interested in buying a kit without the display or tracker - essentially just the lenses and goggles


Going to send you a PM. :)

bamdastard wrote:
Is there an API I can download so I can start modifying my game to support the display when it comes out?


Not just yet. There will be, though!

Torchedini wrote:
Palmer can you give more information about how big your kickstarter goal is going to be ?

Don't want to be cutting it close to imminent failure. :P Because if you fail we can't get devices or at least not via kickstarter. Which would make me sad panda :)


It is going to be a small goal. New developments mean that I don't have to worry about cost overruns as much.

andrewe1 wrote:
Has Palmer said anything about the kickstarter?

It's been almost 3 weeks now......whats happening? :|


Okay, time to update:

Things are on hold just a little bit longer. Why? Because the Kickstarter should be 30 days long, and it should also overlap with QuakeCon and GamesCom, both huge events that Oculus is going to be at. Kickstarter is still going to launch in July, but we need to wait till the 19th or so. That way, we can ride the huge amount of publicity that those events can bring to VR. I hate delays too, but it only makes sense in the long run, and the good news is that none of these delays are due to technical issues!

Here is what I know I can say without getting in trouble (I might be able to say a little more, technically, but I have to be careful a little longer):

1) I am talking to Valve.
2) I am talking to id/Zenimax/Bethesda
3) I am talking to Epic
4) I am talking to Crytek
5) I am talking to Unity
6) I am talking to several other development companies

The extent of their relationships with Oculus varies, but I can promise at least a few partnerships. ;) Oculus is going forward in a big way, but a way that still lets me focus on the community first, and not sell out to a large company. I am working with hardware engineers who have designed some extremely well known gaming peripherals, software developers with very extensive middleware integration and partnership experience, and a small amount of funding from people who really, really want VR to happen. I should be able to order the parts for the kits before the Kickstarter even starts because of this! :D The kit is going to be even cheaper than before, and after the kit is out, development of a higher res, well polished consumer head mount is going to go forward at a lightning pace.

I hate to succumb to hype, but in an attempt to keep people from being to upset about the delay: Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!


Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:25 pm
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PalmerTech wrote:
Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!


Holy crap!! Gimme gimme. :woot


Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:37 pm
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:shock: BRB washing my pants.


Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:45 pm
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PalmerTech wrote:
Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!


OMG, all my dreams come true! This is awesome! :mrgreen:


Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:46 pm
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Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!

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Any updates for those of us that have already sent you money? Anything exclusive/early access/etc coming our way?


Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:49 pm
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Krisper wrote:
PalmerTech wrote:
Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!


OMG, all my dreams come true! This is awesome! :mrgreen:


+1 :)

This crazy good news Palmer. Looks like your dream hobby is turning into reality for the better of all us frutrated VR geeks.

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Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:51 pm
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Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

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German wrote:
Any updates for those of us that have already sent you money? Anything exclusive/early access/etc coming our way?


Yep! Those people will get an even better deal than before, actually. Previously, I was going to use some of the money for just a few pre-release units to be used by some high profile forums members, made at a loss. The rest was going to be bundled into the Kickstarter to buy parts in a huge batch, and make the pre-Kickstarter orders a shipping priority. Because I can now order a lot of the parts before the Kickstarter finishes, I should be able to get those early orders out even sooner! :) The plan is to have $499 covering the HMD, the motion tracker, a copy of Doom 3 (Not donated, Carmack is only covering 100), and shipping. Pretty great deal, IMO.


Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:08 am
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PalmerTech wrote:
1) I am talking to Valve.
2) I am talking to id/Zenimax/Bethesda
3) I am talking to Epic


I can't think anyone else I would rather in that list instead. I know there likely isn't but is there any significance in the ordering of that with Valve being #1 ;) kind of glad EA or Activision were not mentioned though.

I don't spose you have some kind of cryogenic side project your working on that we could use on ourselves untill that HMD is released :roll:

And the kickstarter costing even less... just hope with the lower price and all the publicity it gets that I don't miss out on a kit.

By "built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning" does that mean the hand/weapon/wand positioning will be tied in directly to the HMD so that it does not need it's own connection to the computer/console?

As good as that high res, high fov, low cost HMD in 2013 sounds I really think it needs to stay modular to a degree like the Rift with the ability to atleast upgrade the screen and optics easily even if that causes it to have a more then $1000 USD price.

Is international shipping covered? Be nice if it was but I don't mind paying extra for the shipping if it helps the project out.


Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:22 am
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PalmerTech wrote:
...That can happen in 2013!
The Rift might be a couple of weeks late but it sounds like the future is going to get here 10 years early - great work Palmer! :D


ps - I'd also appreciate info on the optics, I still have a lens lapping kit from an old DIY telescope I never built... :)


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Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:24 am
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1. This is like an even better, earlier Christmas! That list is insane!! :shock:
2. I can now stop hitting F5 and relax in the calm excitement of anticipation to be beyond the bleeding edge of gaming technology! The Rift may one day be something our children or grandchildren see in a museum in the future, right beside the telephone and the internet.
3. Anyone know where I can get a replacement F5 key?

Palmer, congrats on being a pioneer of the future of gaming as we know it. We are all so glad to be a part of this journey with you!


Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:17 am
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This feel when something big is happening right next to you...

Definitively looking forward for 2013!

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Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:05 am
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Thanks for the updates Palmer, it is truly a great news


Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:17 am
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Agreed, thanks for the update. It sounds like things are seriously going your way (with all of us along for the ride)!

Given the plan to pursue a consumer-friendly HMD post-Kickstarter, do you still see supporting the kit version with display upgrades and the like, should they become available?

At this rate, are you going to have a booth at Quake Con? If so, let me know if you need any help manning it. I'm near the area and was already considering going. It wouldn't be my first time standing at a show talking with people for hours on end, nor my first time introducing newcomers to VR. ;)


Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:44 am
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"We are all so glad to be a part of this journey with you!"

Ditto

Ditto

Ditto

and major thx for the update too!


Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:37 am
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PalmerTech wrote:
nosignal wrote:
Could you (or someone else here) tell me how/where you get your lenses - maybe you have documented this already and could send me a link? I would also be interested in buying a kit without the display or tracker - essentially just the lenses and goggles


Going to send you a PM. :)
...

;P Any chance a simular PM could be sent my way. I'm actually mostly interested in just the lenses themselves... though depending on their form and design choices... the goggles might be of interest too.

Also. Just have to say Palmer. This project is pure awesome.


Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:18 pm
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Great news! These are exciting times for sure.

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Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:28 pm
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So very, very cool. I have been waiting almost 20 years for vr to go mainstream.
@palmertech - Keep your notes. If this goes as big as i suspect it will, then there will be textbook chapters writen about you and rift.


Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:58 pm
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PalmerTech wrote:

1) I am talking to Valve.
2) I am talking to id/Zenimax/Bethesda
3) I am talking to Epic
4) I am talking to Crytek
5) I am talking to Unity
6) I am talking to several other development companies


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Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:03 pm
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Quote:
Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!


Hi Palmer,

What are these panels that will give 1080p for each eye? Up until now this thread has said that better panels will be a huge jump in price, now you are saying will be able to do 1080p for sub $1000.

Will these Rifts sold via Kickstarter be upgradeable to these new panels? ie. Will early adoptors be able to upgrade to match the specs of the well-polished consumer model due for 2013?
- will we also be able to upgrade to wireless, and also have hand/weapon/wand positioning?

I've been lurking/waiting for the last month for the arrival of the Kickstarter, and am also greatly excited for you to hear of all the partnerships/collaboration that will fast-track the state of the art in HMD's, I'm just interested in where I might stand if I go ahead with a Kickstarter purchase and then see the release of the uber Rift in 18 months time.

Best wishes,

Adam Webber


Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:49 pm
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Wow, this has taken off like nothing else.
Once i read theres going to be a better version in 2013, i figured why would i want to buy the 2012 version? The instant answer was cause its part of history.
As much as i hate to admit it (cause i hate Apple), its the Apple (ipad, ipod, not the fruit) of the VR world, they exploded from almost nothing to be huge.

Did you ever think when you first started this as a backyard project, that youd be leading a revolution?
Did you ever imagine youd be able to dictate your own rules to some of the biggest game companies in the world? - That would get me all giddy and take a while to sink in

Congratulations on what youve accomplished

** PS, id still get the 2012 Rift, cause the worlds going to end a the end of the year, so i can play games on the Rift while the word ends in complete ingorance


Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:25 pm
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Just curious regarding the newly announced >1080p per eye spec, is that the alleged 2kp panel (retinal display) you guys were talking about before or is it the version that Palmer said would bring about 15% decrease in pixellation in comparison to the 640x480 model?

Basically will you still see pixels with the new panel?


Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:27 pm
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coresnake wrote:
Basically will you still see pixels with the new panel?


My guess is yes. If I still saw the pixels in 45 degree fov on the Sony.
1080p at 90 degree, you could still see the pixels if you looked for it.


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DFP wrote:
coresnake wrote:
Basically will you still see pixels with the new panel?


My guess is yes. If I still saw the pixels in 45 degree fov on the Sony.
1080p at 90 degree, you could still see the pixels if you looked for it.


It depends in which context being able to see pixels is being refered to and i'd hope that the commercial Rift you would not be able to.

1. The pixels are large enough you can individually see them so that you can see "jaggies" along diagonal lines or that circles arn't smooth circles etc like when you run your monitor at a lower resolution.
Image
"low resolution, jaggies but no screen door effect"

2. The screen door effect where you can see the spaces between the pixels and it looks like your looking at the image through a mesh (usually seen with projectors and HMDs since optics are used to magnify the image though if you stick your face close enough to your monitor or tv you'll see the same thing but usually wont't at a regular viewing distance unlike with projectors where you still can)
Image
"high resolution no jaggies but screen door effect"

Crappy job doing the pics but what do you expect using paint :P Kind of hard to do a screen door pic since the lines are smaller then the pixels but I could only draw lines the width of pixels but you get the idea none the less.

Number 1 I think for quite a while will always be visible since at a 90 FOV even double or 4x 1080P resolution you will still be able to discern the size of individual pixels due to the amount they are being magnified.

I don't see this as too big of a concern though since most of the time I don't even play games with AA on (AntiAliasing is a technique used to eliminate this in games) since my hardware is almost 4 years old and once I turn AA on things slow down quite a bit but I can happily play it with the jaggies since even though they are there at 1680x1050 the pixels are small enough that they are not too obvious (as opposed to back in the day playing at 640x480 with jaggies) even though it does look nice when playing with AA on.

Number 2 though is the one that I find the most annoying/distracting and the one that I think reduces immersion more on HMDs but it can be eliminated via optics and i'd hope that a comercial version of the Rift would employ such a thing (as long as it wasn't the elcheapo method which while elminating the screen door effect basically just makes the whole image blurry).

Since they are two different things eliminating one does not have to eliminate the other and with the screen door effect you could actually have a screen a higher enoguh resolution that you could not see jaggies even without AA (I dunno an 8k or 16k screen?) but you could still see the screen door effect as even at that resolution there are still those spaces between the pixels and as small as the pixels are the optics are still magnifying those spaces as well as though pixels.

Other people may be different but i'd much rather look at a display that is a lower resolution where I can see the size of each pixel and have jaggies but I have no screen door effect rather then one which is a super higher resolution that I effectively can not see the size of individual pixels and have no jaggies at all even with no AA running but am still able to see the screen door effect. Obviously I over exaggerated the jaggy pic and the pixels are much larger then they should be so I actually would rather the screen door effect image to that jaggy one lol but if you had a 1080P screen and a higher res screen the diff in pixel size wouldn't look as bad as it does there so would much prefer the lower res without screen door effect.

So in short i'd say in the Commercial product you will be able to see the individal pixels but you will not be able to see the screen door effect.


Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:36 pm
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Great explanation Endothermic, thank you.

I do know they are testing 8k displays for the Olympics in the UK, I'm sure its only a matter of time before the technology is shrunk down to goggle size! However, the bandwidth and processing power required to output that kind of visual fidelity would be mindboggling...


Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:51 pm
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Endothermic wrote:
DFP wrote:
coresnake wrote:
...


You are correct. I think the screen door effect is closer to what I saw in my HMZ. Something else I noticed is that there was some texture on the surface of the OLED themselves, which caused a sort of glitter effect when stuff moved, but some detail or flaw in the surface of the OLED stayed stationary. You kind of really have to look for it, but in the end I guess it depends on the person too. Honestly, I could handle most of that but the reflection on the lens in the peripheral kind of bugged me the most. I'm looking forward to the rift having it large enough that it's out of the way.


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The screen door effect is only produced to any significant degree by DLP projectors. Filter displays like an LCD should never exhibit it, and emissive displays like OLED should not either. There might be other effects from filters between the eye and the panel itself that could cause something similar though.

RE 'retina' displays:

Even 1920x1080 (or vice versa) per eye would be nowhere close to a visually indistinguishable display. For a 90deg FOV, and aiming for human visual acuity of 1 arc-minute (for line separation: vernier acuity would require a much higher resolution!), you need 5400 pixels. So, a 160deg horizontal x 115deg vertical (to cover the entire FOV of one eye) display would have to be 9600x6900, or a bit over 66 megapixels. And that's just for line separation: if you wanted to fool the eye totally, you'd have to take into account Vernier acuity, or Hyperacuity, which can be around 8 arc seconds. A display to beat that would be 72000x51750, or 3.65ish GIGApixels.
And you'd need to render and display this twice, once per eye. And ideally at a high framerate too. Merely transporting that much data from a PC to the display would be a major challenge!

Suffice to say, we won't be seeing anything close to a 'retina display' for wide fields of view anytime soon.


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Quote:
3.65 GIGApixels


Great Scott!!!
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Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:13 am
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EdZ wrote:
The screen door effect is only produced to any significant degree by DLP projectors. Filter displays like an LCD should never exhibit it, and emissive displays like OLED should not either. There might be other effects from filters between the eye and the panel itself that could cause something similar though.


It's usaully far more noticable on projectors but it is definately viewable on any direct view display if you get close enough. It was a particular problem when PLasma TVs first came out as the spacing between the pixels was quite large on the first generation (quite more then any LCD monitor or CRT TV).

With LCD displays i've never seen any other explaination for the screen door effect besides the spacing between the pixels and you really do have to get close to a monitor/tv/laptop before you start to notice it but with a projector you have a lens magnifying the image which I guess is why it's so much more obvious and distinct with them.

While LCD HMDs arn't projecting an image like a projector they still use lenses to magnify and I have yet to use an HMD or video glasses (I hate calling sets designed to use with an iPod or only watch movies HMDs even though technically thats what they are) which did not display the screen door effect to the same degree if not worse then any projector I have seen. Especially the first pair I got which were only 320x240 resolution so you had these nice huge blocky pixels you could see and between each pixel black lines easily 1/3 to almost half the size of the pixels :| by far the worst screen dooring I have ever seen.


Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:40 am
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It's probably separation of color components (RGB) that causes the 'screen door' effect.

The difference you see in LCD displays in regards to pixel sharpness is probably active matrix (TFT) versus passive matrix.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCD#Passiv ... ive-matrix
Quote:
Active-matrix addressed displays look "brighter" and "sharper" than passive-matrix addressed displays of the same size, and generally have quicker response times, producing much better images.

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Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:51 am
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PalmerTech wrote:
I hate to succumb to hype, but in an attempt to keep people from being to upset about the delay: Imagine an HMD with a massive field of view and more pixels than 1080p per eye, wireless PC link, built in absolute head and hand/weapon/wand positioning, and native integration with some (if not all) of the major game engines, all for less than $1,000 USD. That can happen in 2013!


:woot Great work Palmer! Super excited about this. I think this is what I've been dreaming about ever since I first saw Dactyl Nightmare almost 20 years ago. I would also like to know about the new 1080p per eye panels? Anything you can tell us?

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Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:58 am
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Hey Rifters, I finished implementing mouse emulation support for the Rift head tracking device so it can be used to control any FPS game.



Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:34 pm
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Correction: screen-door is prevalent in projection displays that either utilise a colour-wheel (DLP, LCOS) or have three seperate light-paths (DLP, LCOS, 3-chip LCD). This is because instead of having adjacent subpixels like a direct-view LCD or OLED panel, the subpixels are overlaid. Additionally, direct-view displays exhibit a lot more blooming than projection displays do due to the difference in light passing through each subpixel (almost collimated in a projector, diffuse for direct-view). This allow light to bleed between sub-pixels and fill in any gaps.
Quote:
Active Matrix vs Passive Matrix
You'd be hard-pressed to find any passive matrix LCDs anymore (outside of 7-segment or dot-character displays) especially for anything intended to display video.
Quote:
I have yet to use an HMD or video glasses (I hate calling sets designed to use with an iPod or only watch movies HMDs even though technically thats what they are) which did not display the screen door effect to the same degree if not worse then any projector I have seen. Especially the first pair I got which were only 320x240 resolution so you had these nice huge blocky pixels you could see and between each pixel black lines easily 1/3 to almost half the size of the pixels
With older HMDs using older panels, the inter-pixel gaps are fairly large simply because of the older process involved in making the displays. Newer high-resolution displays have to operate on a smaller process anyway, so inter-pixel gaps are reduced, and changes to LCD manufacturing techniques allow this to be further reduced (e.g. PVA, IPS and their derivatives and enhancements).

"Old, cheap and nasty" is a good description of most of the extra-small LCD panels used in HMDs, mainly due to the size limitation and HMDs often being built around excees stock rather than bespoke panels. I don't hold the highest hopes for the initial panel destined for the Rift, but it'll likely be the best panel ever used in a HMD simply by default.
Additionally, with the increased optical path length it shouldn't be too much trouble to put a light diffusion film in there somewhere if any sort of 'screen door effect' (or more likely, simple aliasing) begins to bother you.


Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:34 pm
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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@brantlew: Looking good.

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Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:32 pm
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