You backed the project for tinkering around with VR stuff and exploring things that can be done with it in terms of game mechanics. That puts you right into the target audience, IMHO.

This is for people wanting to experiment with this technology on different levels, from the actual HMD hardware and low level software stuff, up to seeing what possibilites this will open up on higher levels – like game mechanics.

I think Palmer just wants to make sure everyone knows that what they're getting is not a finished consumer product and will have its limitations.
He tries to manage expectations, since the massive KickStarter success might indicate that a lot of people back this because they think it's a finished product for gamers.

You can say that for a lot of thing, especially in gaming. Anytime you buy a GPU, there's gonna be a new one that blow it away a year later (actually, probably sooner). And even for the Rift, while the consumer version will be better, there'll probably be an EVEN better VR one year later.
It's still probably best to wait for the consumer one if you're patient, but I can't wait to try out an high-FOV VR, see how immersive it can be, how big the view actually is, ... even if it's just on Doom 3 and with worse specs. It'll give me an idea on what to expect for the "actual" release and quench my impatience.

Yep, people have been waiting for decades to experience some kind of VR. There is only a certain amount you can "manage expectations" when the excitement for the idea is so huge and you have gaming giants like Gabe and John and Cliff saying this is going to be the next big thing. What was the point of even making the video, since there would be developer interest even without it?

I bet if you polled people most people back Kickstarter projects for the stuff they are going to get, not the idea behind it. They are entirely wrong but that's what it is.


That's a false comparison because those are consumer products. This is most definitely not. Developers and consumers have wildly different expectations and requirements.

Been following the Rift project since I heard of it in June, and didn't hesitate to drop my $300 when I saw the Kickstarter was up on Wednesday. Freaking awesome work here, Palmer. I feel like a little kid waiting for Christmas day again; can't wait to try this out!

I've been a huge fan of virtual reality tech ever since I played the .hack// series of games on my PS2 back in the early 2000's (and read all the mangas and watched all the animes ), which really opened my eyes to the possibility of a "true VR" technology being created sometime in my lifetime. I know this is a far-cry from that, but the Rift, to me, represents a good first step in that direction. I've been researching VR tech for over a decade, and have been really saddened by the lack of growth in that area. I couldn't believe there weren't people out there like me who wanted this to happen as badly as I did. I thought there'd be computer scientists all over the world working on stuff like this, but I was a naive child for believing that.

But finally, after all these years, you've given me that childlike hope back again. I really hope the Rift inspires current and future generations to pursue VR tech, and shows the world that there is indeed a market for this, if they would just try! This is a great first step to getting VR into the hands of the masses, and if it catches on with the Joe Shmoe's of the world, we will certainly be seeing better and better things in this arena as the years go by. Perhaps "true VR" really will happen in my lifetime. Thank you, Palmer, for returning that hope to me.

Keep up the great work! We all appreciate your dedication and hard work to seeing this project through. You've certainly got a fan in me.

Kind of off-topic, but have you started watching Sword Art Online? It's got a very similar vibe to .hack// and I think the Rift is a great first step in the direction towards a mad scientist creating an MMO then locking everyone into it and forcing you to play or die. Definitely why I backed Palmer!

Ah... can't wait for that future.

Hahaha! I, like, literally just started watching that series. I read the premise and was like, "This sounds similar to .hack//, I'm all over this." Seems really cool so far. Looking forward to the next episode.

I noticed that Carmack has been talking a bit about using TrackIR during his talks. But that it doesn't degrade well enough.

I've been thinking of trying to make a setup with multiple TrackIR like things (most likely using FreeIR instead) and multiple cameras. It seems like a system like that would be more robust. But I'm kind of thinking of a scenario were you put the user in a restricted "play pen" kind of like in the old VR systems where you stood on a platform with a rail around you so you couldn't fall over. I'm thinking if you put the user in an area like that it would be fairly easy to put 3 cameras around them to keep them covered almost all the time.

Also I'm intending to try to use a Playstation Move with a Sharp shooter add-on on a PC. Seems like some other people on this board has tried that as well before but I have a lot of posts to go through before I find their end results. Hopefully I get around to testing that on my vacation but there's always so much one intends to do on vacation that it tends to overflow.

And the Carmack keynote was epic. Thanks everyone who posted it!

Ok, I watched the whole keynote and listened to the audio for the VR segment. Amazing stuff. All this time I've been sitting here in my bedroom, waiting for this day. VR is officially making a comeback. Much respect to John Carmack for bringing this to the masses. I don't think any of this could have happened without his support.

+1 - It was truly inspiring stuff, both profoundly and importantly cool!

I have listened to many of Johns keynotes / interviews over the years and admire how he always treats his audience with respect, never dodging complex explanations of complex problems, sadly I have a very patchy knowledge of the rendering pipeline so I normally have to keep Wikipedia open as I listen! Even so I always come away with an insight into the limitations on the current state of the art but more importantly of the possibilities of what's coming, if we do things right. It's a great engineering approach: Well this is clearly unacceptable, here's why it doesn't work right - and here's what we have to do to fix it.

There's always some subtle comedy in there to, that bit about the camera <-> monitor setup had me in stitches, I used to work on emulating TV conditional access systems because the idea of re-capturing a composite output from a set-top box that was receiving an MPEG2 transport stream was just a crime against technology, I used to say you may as well just point a camcorder at your TV! Anyways...

There is no doubt we would not be where we are now without Johns support. I admit I had almost given up on VR, so those like Palmer and the others around here who stuck at it all this time must feel this is a vindication of all those efforts. "We have the technology" - we just needed the right minds in the right place at the right time, turns out that place was MTBS all along.

Lol. Thanks for breaking it down for me.

Yes, 1-2 years HD VR. The new challenge is tactile immersion.

Found 2 videos of people playing.
this is a short one with someone looking around.

and this one is a longer set of gameplay (looks like the guy would have played the whole game if Palmer didn't stop him).

EDIT: Virtual Insanity Final video went up an hour ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gaqQdyfAz8&feature=plcp

I've been thinking about something with the RIFT that many people may not of even considered.

Alot of games allow you to record the game, not a video of it but in the game so to play it back you need the game and it loads the level and runs through it with everything that happened when it was recording happen.

With the RIFT you could have it so that instead of just playing back the recording like that so you see everything they saw, have you tethered to the player so that you cna see everything they saw or if you like look around at whatever you want with full head tracking. You could even allow them to untether from the player and freely move around the game world to watch what the player is doing from wherever they like or see it from the monsters point of view they are fighting etc. Ontop of that as an advanced mode or something even have slow motion controls and virtual cameras etc that they can setup and play with to let them create their own movie from everything that happened in that game.

As an extension of that you could also have a live mode as well so that a player plays the game just like they do now with a monitor but a second person on the system with the RIFT on is just going along for the ride and can look where they like instead of seeing what the player sees or like with the recordings allow them to untether from the player and go around the world themselves.

Of course with that kind of live play there will be some problems as the framerate will drop by half that may not be a problem for PC but if a console is already maxed out it could be and you'd need a 2nd set of controls for the viewer to move around with which wouldn't be a problem with a console but a PC wont have any unless they purchase a usb control pad or something for them to use. There could also be problems if you allow them to untether in live mode where the viewer could go ahead and tell the player whats coming up or where things are etc which I guess is fine for single player but would be a problem for multiplayer. Then ofcourse you have the issue of needing the warped SBS display (whether 3D or 2D) for the RIFT and an unwarped 2D (or 3D if they have the gear but again will tax the system alot more) non SBS for the actual player.

You could even have a type of internet spectator sport created where people view live feeds of tournaments that are sending this ingame recorded data (instead of video) to them though of course it will mean anyone wanting to watch it will need the game and it will only look as good as their system can run it.

@Endothermic : This exists already!
Source engine games allow you to connect to live games (including tournament ones) and receive the game data, spectacting the game view a variety of views, including a first person free look view which would be perfect for this.
In Dota 2 you can even do this and also receive the voice of the commentator live too, directly in the game (though it's a RTS view for this game so it would be strange with the Rift, I guess. CS:GO will probably support it too.)

Can you do it with recordings of the games though?

Thats what interests me the most (and hence mentioned first) being able to head track around or freely move around a recording instead of having the POV fixed to the player.

Never got into the whole watching games live thing only read bits about it and don't recall reading anything about being able to record games and do it with that though only with the live viewing however I also didn't do really extensive reading on it since I wasn't going to do the whole watching live games

Halo 3, Halo: ODST(I think) and Halo: Reach can all do this with their game recordings.

Destructoid have posted a hands on impression:

http://www.destructoid.com/quakecon-pre ... 2547.phtml

Seems as if he never tried a hmd before since he is complaining about the limited 90 degree fov...

Here is another, more positive, feedback: http://gamersnewsnetwork.wordpress.com/ ... xperience/

What about some of you guys, has anyone tried the rift at quakecon?

When I read the destructiod article and saw the line about the "limited 90 degree FoV" I felt the intense urge to drop kick the guy.....

Really cool articles all around. I also look forward to some more feedback from the press and anyone who tried the setup.

There's 2 limitations I haven't thought of until reading the Destructoid article and watching Virtual Insanity:

1. No HUD elements. Not even a crosshair for aiming. Perhaps all GUI elements need to be 3D to work correctly. I played counter-strike in stereoscopic 3D and found the crosshair was hard to use since it was on a different 'plane', so you couldn't focus on the crosshair and the enemy you wanted to target at the same time. Or maybe crosshairs should go away completely in favor of ironsights for a more natural experience.
Not sure how ingame menus/inventory should work, but it may not work as a simple 2D overlay (speculation).

2. Looks like there is a technical obstacle to having the body and head point different directions. The gyroscope has drift, this drift is corrected by the accelerometer (which always points down due to gravity). So if the drift makes the gyro think your head is 'rolled' to the left, the accelerometer can check the direction of down and verify/correct. However, if your yaw (y-axis) is off by a few degrees due to gyro drift, there is nothing that can correct this. You would need some kind of compass, TrackIR or Razer Hydra type thing to correct yaw problems.
So Arma style head/body de-coupling does not appear possible with the current tech in the Rift. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Success.


Fail.

Sadly he didnt express his concern regarding fov in more detail. I cant think of any situation where i would describe such a huge fov as limiting since it easily outperforms even the biggest (home) cinema installations...

That could add an interesting element of gameplay for some games, although sniper rifles would require more effort to simulate, you could have a more realistic western game, where you use eye hand coordination to aim more so than just sight line up.



There are some sensor combinations that come with a compass that uses the earths magnetic field. It looks like the hillcrest sensor does not, so I'm not sure how they will solve this, except maybe the drift is small enough to simply ignore those small changes.

An example of a sensor combination that includes compasses:
http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?ca ... _id=1056_0

Also, I thought Carmack/id had been working on decoupling and in the "Virtual Insanity" round table he said that they have a new demo that they will be showing tomorrow, I was under the impression that would include decoupled head and body. It will be interesting to see what comes with that, it might answer all your questions.

I can see how people can say that even 90 degrees is limited by the fact that you can still move your eyes around and see the borders, but I can also see how expecting more than 90 degrees is also rather ridiculous, since there are many games today that use HFOVs less than 90!

Something I tried, is to hold a book or something up to my eye, with one of the corners near my eye, to get a idea of how 90 degrees will look. It's enough that trying to move my eye away from my nose enough to see past the edges is slighty uncomfortable.

Simply overlay HUDs wouldn't work anymore (they'd all be ad infinite depth, so would look 'behind' most of the scene, even though they obscure things 'in front'), but as long as you hang your UI elements in 3D space, it should work. I could see having your UI floating uniformly close to your viewpoint to be an isue, as it would require a lot of focus switching between the 'near' UI and 'far' scene, but you could hang much of the contextual UI next to the scene objects themselves (e.g. player's names float over the player model).
It's reasonable to assume that people will generally face forwards when using the HMD, with temporary movements to 'look around'. Thus, you could keep a record of past yaw guesstimates, and if the value doesn't change outside a certain range for a certain time, and the average is within a certain distance of where you're currently guessing 'forwards' is, the average of that range is assumed to be 'forwards'. Of course, this assumes the person is sitting in a chair facing a constant direction. You might also have to wait for a rapid head-slew to reset the centre position, in order not to have the view appear to drift back into alignment.

Yeah, I think also that stereoscopic vision doesn't work well when not looking straight ahead. The natural thing to do when you are properly examining something is to aim your head at it, instead of only moving your eyes.

What might be interesting to have is bias lighting, like the kind used for some HDTVs, where you subtly light up the border of the screen based upon what is happening in the virtual environment, and stimulate peripheral vision.

I have tried that too. Works quite well on low fov hmd, but I don't think rift will need it.

Yep. Not 100% sure about the older source games but in Dota2 at least you can (and every game is recorded!).
In TF2 there's the whole "replay server" thing so I'm pretty sure it works there too.


I have a 3D screen, and the Nvidia driver can automatically add a 3D crosshair to the game, which work great. The only hard part, with a few games, is disabling the game's default crosshair.
Inventory and stuff usually just render at 0 depth (ie. not sticking out of the screen, not going "into" the screen either), which isn't ideal but not a big problem, except with games with 2D hud elements constantly in the middle of the screen (like a RTS with life bars above the units).

I was also thinking it could be used by games, like where they use red to indicate the direction you are receiving damage from. It could be used for stealth games to let you know whether you are hidden or visible. One of the games I worked on, The Saboteur, had something where the lower your health the more the edges of the screen turn red (I don't recall if we dropped that or changed it). This is a lot more immersive than having a hud that tells you how much life you have left or your stealth state.

Once you venture closer to reality, things like crosshairs will have to disappear anyway. A game I am working on casts a line from the gun and places a crosshair just in front of whatever it hits. But that is sort of a cheat really and as I have hand tracking, to get accurate shooting you really need to raise the gun up to eye level and look along the sights as you would in RL.

When you have yaw drift like this, you need to have a reset to center button on your controller which you press to recenter your torso to head every now and then.

I think that the best solution for the cross-hair is to have them painted on a single eye view. You need to be able to switch it from one side to the other since different people have a different eye as dominant, but it's the only way that really makes sense to me. It also seems to be the easiest to implement. When we have independent tracking of the gun relative to head, then the implementation becomes a bit difficult, but I still would prefer the single eye gun sight.

With regards to the drift.. I'm not sure that the yaw drift is really a problem if we have independent movement/gun tracking since you constantly update your movement relative to the view anyway, so a tiny incremental adjustment would only be noticed if you were standing in the same place and looking left and right constantly.

Carmack added a red-line sight on all guns to replace the crosshair. Several of the guns have ammo counters on the weapons already.

I would think simulating a real world laser sight by placing a decal (laser dot) on whatever surface the gun is aiming at would work well. They do this with the sniper rifle in TF2.

I'm sure there will be many problems that were artificially solved in traditional FPS using a 2D HUD that might be solved more intuitively using real world analogies in immersive VR.

Greetings,

I've been lurking since thy beginnings of page 40 of this thread, and some really interesting stuff came up.

I also wanted to add a tiny suggestion: It would be very cheap and easy to add a button on the glasses at the place of ones forehead (or a light sensor) to detect whether someone has his Rift on. This could come in very handy to let the computer automatically switch between displays, or for example an autologout feature (instead of escape).

Something entirely different and maybe not so convenient/necessary: adding two to three (infrared) leds on the outside of the Rift. One could use a wiimote to do some easy and cheap additional headtracking, or a modified webcam for that matter.

Some things jumped out at me from watching the videos.

It seems to me that the gun aim is locked to the head tracking. Wherever the player looked the gun followed. I was expecting the mouse to orient both the virtual torso and gun, and the head tracking would only affect the virtual head. I can see the benefit of tying the gun orientation to the head orientation, however now there is no visible indicator of what direction is forward.

But as I closed my eyes and imagined it I realized something pretty cool, as long as the head tracking doesn't drift (too much) the player would retain an instinctive sense of what is "forward" because your mind is aware of how your real head is oriented in relation to your real torso. Am I on the right track here?

One thing that has been on my mind is how accepting would people be of external equipment for tracking purposes? Would consumers be ok with setting up 4-8 tripods around their living room if it meant having a good tracking system for use with the Rift?

I think so, people put up with surround speakers because of the obvious benefit of directional sound,

maybe you could even integrate the tracker kit with the sound system?

Being a developer kit, I think the idea is that small modifications like this should be easy enough for you to try out yourself and feed back if you have reasonable success.
I like the idea of the LEDs for use with wiimote. Could be a good, cheap solution for absolute lateral position.

Yes, true indeed. However I'm not really a hardware tinkerer myself so I thought outing it here would be a good idea. The button might be easy enough to add to the developer version, however it would indeed not really be necessary yet.

Triangulating ones position is a good idea, Krenzo, especially given the Kinect has a too high latency, this could be a better alternative. I wonder how this could be best achieved: through leds or with radiowaves, or even sound waves..?

ADD: Sound waves may seem crazy, but while wearing a headphone one wouldn't notice the syncing sounds. One could use his/her dolby surround set, then add some mics to the headgear..
ADD: Just saw Nick3DvB's post, had the same idea apparently

There used to be a device that used sounds waves for tracking, I have it some where. It was for the PC and came with virtua cop. It was kind of a gun remote thing. Now I am going to have to look for it :/