HMD help, and introduction.

Post by **Johnny-Mnemonic** » Mon May 31, 2010 5:47 pm

VRgamesterz wrote:LOL, This is what happens when you do something and sell it to the wrong guy...

Such a nice job I did on the paint, I think he upgraded them to the dual Z800, but still, that was al me...

Ku

http://www.cwonline.com/store/view_prod ... oduct=1375" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Holy... what a price-tag...
Anyway great work on helm VRgamesterz!

I suppose I will not cut my HMD's anytime soon, I like them in pure, "historical" condition

But I do want to build something-like Flogiston chair, during this summer.
I guess this would be a good addition to home VR system.

http://flogistondesign.com/chair.htm

Post by **SinSilla** » Mon May 31, 2010 7:27 pm

If there only would be a way to fit that all inside the shell...but options are limited when using such a large display.
It´s the 5,6" Hydis wxga panel.

Here some shots "in action"

Lens is an Eschenbach Aspheric II.

And that was indeed a nice paintjob Ku!

Post by **cybereality** » Mon May 31, 2010 9:04 pm

Very nice setup! I still wish I could build an HMD.

Post by **crim3** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:15 am

Johnny-Mnemonic wrote:Will you incorporate head-tracker inside SinSilla?

This could be the one, in case you decide to use out-of-the-shelf solution:
http://www.pnicorp.com/products/all/spacepoint-fusion
Looks like it can be fitted in the VFX shell.

For 99$!! How is that possible?

Post by **VRgamesterz** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:55 pm

Phillip , does the vga board have to be that close to the lcd screen? No way of extending those cables, woundered if that could be put in it's own box of some type.

Johnny M,

What else have you done with this in it's orginal state? I know you were doing some testing, do anything FUN!

Post by **SinSilla** » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:31 am

Hey,

unfortunately, in my case, i am very limited due to the rather short connection between controller and display.
The cable (loose wires) is secured with hot-glue on the controller side, so for me there was no way to extend it.

But since Jianbo of Vitrolight is quite communicative you could always ask him to make it longer if you decide to order from him.

I don´t know if i understood you right, but before i went the 5,6" way i was fiddling with other display sizes and lenses (including dual 3,5") but found none of those combinations convenient enough (i was aiming at a wide FoV).

Since friday i´ve got the sound working as well, and assembled the unit as good as possible and did some early cable-management. Now i can use the unit quite easily and almost comfortable. Watching movies has been amazing so far, tried some Oblivion and Dirt 2 as well, which was also a nice experience.

But i guess i won´t be using the unit for longer periods of time since eyestrain will definetely become a problem.
I might try to get more space between the display and the lens (right now it´s ~ 2") to achieve the best magnification and probably reducing some of the eyestrain.

Still, i´m very happy with my results so far and i´m definetely in love with my new gadget!

€: Btw, i failed hard at keeping enough room for installing a tracker inside the unit.

Post by **VRgamesterz** » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:05 pm

Hahahaah! I like the avatar, pretty cool.

Nice work, very nice to see more mods with the VFX shell. So 2 inches is what's between the magnifier and the screen, I wounder if that was the same for the MRG2.2, the video from Tony seemed like it was close. I wounder if that Magnifier you got is close to the one in the MRG, what was the mag 2x, 3x?

Sin, do have any good

glasses to try out some 3D and really cause some strain on your eyes!!!

Ku

Post by **SinSilla** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:00 am

Hehe, thank you!

I indeed tried anaglyph 3d with my setup: The negative effects get enhanced (color shift and ghosting seems even worse than before) while the only positive effect (depth) is weakened somehow. So this is definitely not an option.

But as i have mentioned somewhere else, depth perception is very nice with the lens alone.

The lenses should almost be identical (well, mine should be of better quality

).
Both have the exact same size, both are aspheric and should therefore have almost equal magnification values (my lens is 7,6 dpt / 3x)

But i´ll have to do some more fine-tuning to get the best ratio of sharpness/magnification/fov possible.
I´ll have to move the lens about 0,3"-0,4" closer to the eyes and the distance between display and lens has to be extended by another 0,7".

Greetings,

Sin

Post by **PalmerTech** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:27 am

Actually, I am pretty sure the MRG2.2 lens is 6x magnification. It is very, very curved.

Post by **SinSilla** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:56 pm

Hm, where'd you get that from?

I don´t know how that should work out, i´ve watched the teardown video of the MRG2.2 a couple of times and the distance between the lens and the display seems to be almost the same as in my setup. With an magnification factor of 6 on that distance you would barely see 50% of the image. Unless i´m having an error in reasoning of course. ^^

I´m not that deep into optics, but i doubt that two lenses with the same size and characteristics (just watched it again, curvature also seems to be pretty much the same) can have a difference in diopters of more than 12? Don´t know, if so that would be very interesting. At least i couldn´t find any lens that would come close to such specs.

Does anyone have a spare lens of an MRG2.2 left and would sell it? I would really love to compare it to other lenses.

Post by **mayaman** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:25 pm

I just bought an MRG2.2 from v-artifacts in what he says is mint operational condition. My question is this.

1. Would this work?

http://www.agilentpixel.com/product.php?id_product=127" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. How or where could I get a much longer ribbon cable so I could put the controller on the desk and not sticking out of the helmet.

With just this I should have an unbelievable hmd.

Thanks guys

Post by **Johnny-Mnemonic** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:25 pm

mayaman wrote:I just bought an MRG2.2 from v-artifacts in what he says is mint operational condition. My question is this.

1. Would this work?

http://www.agilentpixel.com/product.php?id_product=127" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. How or where could I get a much longer ribbon cable so I could put the controller on the desk and not sticking out of the helmet.

With just this I should have an unbelievable hmd.

Thanks guys

I think if you would like to rip off MRG - just ask Tony, maybe he already have not working units on lesser price, why buy full working historically accurate HMD to rip off it's internals?

P.S. LCD panel looks pretty cool, however it's 5.6", I believe MRG have 5.4" native panel
P.S.2. Sorry guys we have very hot summer now, so I dropped my test with HMDs for a few weeks.

Post by **mayaman** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:29 pm

Well I wanted a clean working example of the hmd. Usually non working models have been abused and several components my be missing or in poor condition. So better to start off with a good example.

Does anybody know how I can expand the ribbon cable on this. http://www.agilentpixel.com/product.php?id_product=127" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the perfect LCD for this project. The mrg LCD is 5.7 and so is this panel. And it has hdmi for my ps3 and xbox. If anybody has a link to something better, or an idea of how to make a longer controller cable please let us know.

Post by **mayaman** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:13 pm

Got my mrg, man this thing is sweet. I can't wait to start my project but none of these LCD companies return my emails.

Post by **VRgamesterz** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:43 pm

Welt this is what I've come up with, may not be on the button, but close. The mag lens is 4 1/4 x 2 1/4, this was edge to edge . They made some cuts for it to fit in the welders visor on the top and bottom, the cut out for the nose is cool but I didn't really feel the need to have my face that tight. The sharp lcd screen is about 1 inch thick, im sure the new lcd's are half that if that . I measured the distance from the lcd to where it might reach the lens and that was at the center about 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 , the edges it seemed like 2.
The mag lens seems to be 7/8 of an inch thick. I did find on ebay the lens that seems to be like this one, around $35. Im not sure if it has the same xx factor. I think the one on ebay was 3x, but the size was the same.

So taking into account these figures, I don't see a prob having the 5.6 lcd , there is alot of the screen that you don't see without the magnifier, the top and bottom.

So this should be fun seeing we have a few trying this fit. Oh also the vga board I think will fit nice in the front cover behind the lcd screen, just need alittle hole for the vga cable and power to exit.

Ku

Post by **Johnny-Mnemonic** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:31 am

mayaman wrote:Got my mrg, man this thing is sweet. I can't wait to start my project but none of these LCD companies return my emails.

Hope you will succeed!
Keep my fingers crossed.
I'm like MRG 2.2 alot myself.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:06 pm

Well, since this thread seems to have turned into the de-facto "DIY monoscopic HMD" thread...

I found something very interesting! As I am sure many of you know, the MRG 2.2 uses very simple optics, a 4"x2", roughly, magnifying lens. Of course, this is very, very near the limit of fitting a 5.6" panel, and has some edge distortion... Check this out:

http://www.amazon.com/Bausch-Lomb-Magni ... B000JHRJQM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only 2x, but the viewing area is much larger! 4"x5"! And according to the reviews, it is excellent quality (As one would expect from Bausch & Lomb!

This should remove the problems of the, frankly, poor quality MRG2.2 lens... And also open up the possibility of using 7" panels, which are far more common, albeit in slightly lower resolutions than the 5.6" Hydis panel. Either way, having a viewing lens aperture that large has many advantages! I will also need to trim on the bottom for my nose, but that is easy, only acrylic after all.

I am buying one tomorrow, if nobody has any reasons to not do so! I may be on hiatus from much gaming or building, but I can get ready in the meanwhile.

Post by **mayaman** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:52 pm

These guys for the LCD panels don't return emails, WTF!!!!

Post by **VRgamesterz** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:07 am

Palmer, sad to hear your not working on to much of late!!! Funny you found that mag, just the other day I went to walmart with the wife to check on new glasses for her and was looking at some magnifiers and that was one that I took out of the box, it fits over the neck and has rubber feet to lean up against the chest. for it being 2x, it was clearer that you could be farther away and still have a big picture and not be blurry, I only tested it on the price tags but like you said, it's a good size.

Hey have you figured out what that mold that they used to cover the lcd with was? Seems they did alot of dremel work so it wasn't made for that purpose. Still intersting to see how a company put all these things together.

PM me and let me know about that other thing we were discussing..

KU

Post by **PalmerTech** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:10 am

What was the focal distance like on it? Do you think the viewing area would be suitable for a 7" widescreen?

All the plastic parts on the MRG2.2 are custom vacuum formed plastic. It is basically making a mold, then putting it on a vac form table, which is a table with holes in it and a air pump sucking air through the holes. You heat up a sheet of plastic, and while it is still hot and flexible, lay it over the mold. The air will suck down the edges flat, and then you have a piece of plastic that is a replica of the mold. You still have to dremel out any areas you need to, though, which is why the plasticwork is so rough.

Post by **VRgamesterz** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:32 am

Put it this way,the magnifier with the MRG, has to be at a set distance, there is no alittle here alittle there. To blurry and hurts the eyes. Now that 4x5 I found that the distance from the image could be more. Im sure between the 2 to 3inches would be tops but it wont be as bad with the blurryness. It was softer on the eyes if you know what I mean when it was up against my face..

I have a helmet coming and in waiting to hear from Vitrolight on getting an LCD. As much as 3d is fun, a full field of view is just as good.

Ku

Post by **PalmerTech** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:32 pm

I agree! I wish I could find a smallish, 120ghz LCD that could be used with shutterglasses, that would be great for a mono HMD.

I bought that lens, and some other optics. Can't wait to get back into building!

Post by **android78** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:12 pm

PalmerTech wrote:I wish I could find a smallish, 120ghz LCD

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

120ghz would certainly ensure that you didn't get any flicker, I guess.
I think that 120Hz is a more reasonable expectation though.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:54 pm

Oops! Yes, I meant 120hz.

I had an HP DV6000 display that could be driven overspec at 120hz, it was 15"... I wonder if any of these small screens are the same?

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:36 pm

Well according to some posters I've seen (here and elsewhere) there are some regular LCD screens that will work with standard shutter glasses. Usually they say LCDs that can do 75Hz or better are best, but I have had people claim 60Hz LCDs work. None of the LCD screens I ever tried have worked, so its probably not that likely but worth a shot if you are getting the display anyway.

Post by **android78** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:57 pm

cybereality wrote:Well according to some posters I've seen (here and elsewhere) there are some regular LCD screens that will work with standard shutter glasses. Usually they say LCDs that can do 75Hz or better are best, but I have had people claim 60Hz LCDs work. None of the LCD screens I ever tried have worked, so its probably not that likely but worth a shot if you are getting the display anyway.

Part of the problem with LCD screens is that with the alignment of the polarization in the screen with that of the glasses. Often you will find that the screen may just appear black all the time unless it is rotated 45 or 90 degrees. I managed to get some 3D effect with my $10 shutters and regular LCD but had to twist them unnaturally to do so. Even then, there was more ghosting then there should have been.

Post by **mickeyjaw** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:21 am

The edimensionals sold as 'lcd compatible' have the polarization at the right angle. 60hz/2 is painful to watch though, plus you have the problems with the way lcds scan - there is only a complete left or right eye view on the screen about 10% of the time. Read Andrew Woods' papers on the subject for more info.

Post by **VRgamesterz** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:42 pm

Palmer, I didn't like the 5" clear magnifier, nice size but you couldn't have the lcd close as with the one from MRG2.2. Atleast for me it wasn't any good because my screen is the 5.6, now maybe a 7 or 8.9 it might be worth it but still atleast it had to be 4 inches away I think! I tried to cut down to size my fresnel lens to 5x5 and mounted it easy in my helmet but I want to keep the distance around 2 to 2 1/2 and I had to have it at 4 inches with that as well, so im gonna stick with the 2x4 3x mag and keep it at that. I do have some credit card fresnels coming just to give them a look and see how they pan out.

That little screen is pretty awesome, bright , sharp and the colors were very nice.

Either way, I look at it like this, the screen itself is bigger then what we get in today's low HMD's and if you can do without the 3d, still getting an immersive screen is pretty cool and not busting the savings, yeah we have to do some molding and get alittle creative but I think when im done this will be well worth it.

ltr...

Post by **PalmerTech** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:15 pm

Yeah, I got mine too, same conclusion.

I got an 800x600 8.9" panel now! And it works really, really well, fills the entire thing nearly to the edges!

And it works in an MRG shell, too.

I just shipped off my fully completed 1280x800 MRG to Cyberreality, who will review it, and then on it goes to either Ido, or maybe someone else in the interim, not sure yet. But my second MRG shell is definitely going to get this 800x600 panel.

What I really want to do is build a miniature Planar 3D setup for an HMD. It would be the definition of overkill.

I will be posting pics in the next day or so, I took some before I shipped it off, but I need time to organize a writeup around them.

Post by **ido** » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:47 am

Yes. Thank you again Palmer for your work on my MRG... I can't wait to look at it.

Cyberreality, feel free to PM me your impressions of it once you get it I'd love to hear about it.

Also Palmer if you ever do another HMD and send it out to someone I'd love to give it a try first if you wouldn't mind. The 800x600 screen sounds like you'd get a little more FOV out of it, which would be pretty damn cool.

Either way, can't wait to get it. I've never had an HMD with over 800x600... and that was really horrible FOV compared to what I'll be getting here.

Also Palmer added a little something to counteract the weight of the helmet and also give force feedback. Can't beat that.

Post by **Okta** » Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:51 am

Looks like a few of us are getting the into the immersive hmd's now. I think we should partition Neil for a VR sub catagory. Ive been playing around with controllers and my hmd and i think this is where it gets interesting. I will start a thread dedicated to that for now.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11134" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PalmerTech** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:37 am

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=11070" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Okta** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:48 pm

Just had a though about peripheral vision with these things. Lots of talk about ambilight setups but how do they work? I expect you need a row of leds combined with a row of sensors for each edge of the display and logic curcuit to make it reproduce the color detected at the screen edge? Sounds pretty intensive.

Had a simpler idea. How about frosted mirrors or glass along each edge that reflect a portion of the screen edge to your periphery that is blended or smudged by the frosting? It would be reversed but smudging it enough will just reproduce the colors you want and fill your view.

Anyone?

Post by **crim3** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:03 am

The resolution of the eyes at the periphery is nothing but crap. That's why I think that we don't need to fill all the field with high resolution graphics and that a couple of very low resolution displays at either side of the main display would do a decent work. I mentioned it some time ago. But it would require lot of custom solutions (hardware and software) to have a system with 4 displays, two with low resolution and monoscopic graphics and two for the main view with high resolution and stereo. A real mess.

What you have proposed on the second part of your post could be a great solution. To stretch a few columns of pixels of the main displays to cover the periphery instead of using those extra low resolution displays I told about. That could work.
How to do it, that's another story.

When thinking about how to fill the periphery the key is taking into account the very low resolution of the eyes in that area. You have found what I think is the right way.

Post by **VRgamesterz** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:51 pm

Ok Fellas, hows the HMD progress coming?

We've seen Sinsilla's project with the VFX-shell, OKta, you've built some things? Any pic's so far?

Palmer did a Mod with the MRG2.2 shell for Ido, I guess Cybereality is getting a closer look at it for a review soon!

I myself just got finished with a cover that I made out of Plaster and then used Bondo to smooth it out and make it more sturdy. Im not using the MRG shell but I will be using the Magnifier and a new welder google that the magnifier fits in.

Im using the 5.6 LCD from Vitrolight, awesome little screen, words can't describe the quality at 1280x800. I bought the 7in1 board with HMDI,DVI etc. but it's like 8 inches long, it would look to wierd on my helmet design so I bought the smaller VGA board, no other connections. The size is around a cell phone, plus the little board with the buttons for on/off etc. So no problems hiding that.

Im ready to put everything together once I test this new board and get a new paint job on it. The only issue I guess is not doing 3d in this setup, even know that I did test red/cyan with my proAnn glasses with some Painkiller and it did work pretty good. Noty sure if I want to even bother playing that way because of the headache I get after playing but it did work.

Once I get the paint on, I'll post some pic's of it finished.. Till then can't wait to see some pic's of the Mod Palmer and a review from Cyber....

Ku

Post by **Okta** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:32 pm

VRgamesterz wrote:Ok Fellas, hows the HMD progress coming?

OKta, you've built some things? Any pic's so far?

SO far only the single screen HMD in my thread here with pics. Im still updating and improving it and playing with controller setups and tracking http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5961" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:53 pm

I didn't take any pictures of the mod Palmer did, but I did get to play with it for a weekend. First off the resolution and FOV were really impressive. It looked crystal clear at 1280 x 1024 (I think) and the FOV was around 95 degrees. You couldn't really take in the whole view without moving your eyes around. Very immersive. However the overall design of the unit made it cumbersome and uncomfortable to use. For starters the focus of the optics was all wrong. While it was clear, it basically felt like you were looking at a display directly in front of your eyes (not like the VR920, for example, where it appears a few feet out). This made it hard to focus and would surely lead to headaches after any amount of time. Secondly the physical unit was heavy and cumbersome and seemed too small for my face. It was very hard to put on and while wearing it it clamped my face so I couldn't breathe out of my nose. Not good. So I was happy to get the chance to try out an advanced prototype HMD, but those issues stopped it from being a truly engaging experience. Hopefully later prototypes will solve those issues.

Post by **SinSilla** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:57 am

Hey Fellas,

took a little timeout...

I received my little gyration mouse for tracking purposes in the meantime!

It works surprisingly good and obviously adds very much to the overall immersion. After half an hour of Far Cry 2 i took of my HMD and was really confused cause i absolutely lost orientation in my real environment.

So, while all of this is really fun and awesome i still decided to sell my unit cause i want to focus again on my other hobby, homecinema.

You have seen the pictures, it´s not an industry quality product, but it works and it could either be enhanced or torn apart if necessary.

The kit would include:

- modified VFX-1 Shell
- Hydis 5,6" WVGA Panel /incl. VGA Controller (Euro Power Plug if compatible)
- Eschenbach Aspheric II Lens
- Gyration Gyrotransport: Pro (Airmouse)
- VGA-Cable / Audio Cable (3,5mm) - both ~5m long

Hook me up with a pm if you are interested or have any questions.

Greetings,

Sin

Post by **PalmerTech** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:36 pm

http://altvr.modretro.com/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It would be great if y'all could help me try to fill it out.

I have some really, really neat stuff to post in the next week!

Post by **VRgamesterz** » Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:06 pm

Palmer, what would it take to use 2 laser pico's, projecting them downward like those tiny lcd screens in the vuzix, you wouldn't really need a lens to make the image bigger like the lens that the lcd sat on, but then what? What would the beam hit and direct off to make a screen? I took apart the vuzix and saw how its setup, Im just lost on what is seeing the small lcd and sending it make one screen, what part is doing this and can this be done with pico PJ? Im shocked compaines aren't taking these apart and stuffing them inside to get a big FOV , there must be more to it that I don't understand, just curious!! I remember someone posting about something that reflex the image, are they to big? to $$$.

Ok I just took apart the trimersion set, I see those koplins 922k, under the lcd's are tiny magnifiers, what we look through, has some sort of glass angled so the image hits that and then displays on this curved shaped mirror, from a distance it has my face image upside down, but when I get real close to it I can see my eyeball pretty clear and upright, now what part is that? Why is it curved?

Mike