Prototype Name BmotionVR: omnidirectional treadmill

[Dantesinferno]

[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRsdxC9V-lA[/youtube-hd]

Hey Guys this is my first Virtual Reality project and i'm really looking forward to working alongside the community in hopes to create this omnidirectional locomotion treadmill device called "Bmotion" (i'm probably going to change the name later). I plan to create a "harness" type device that utilizes the wizdish and the Oculus Rift. A friend and I are going to diligently work and keep you guys updated on our progress. I am still High school but i will finish this project within the year(hopefully by the end of summer). I am working on a 3d model in blender, and could really use the exact measurements of the "wizdish" so i can model it correctly. If anyone has that info, it would be greatly appreciated. I don't want this to be some project that never gets finished. I need your HELP!

[cybereality]

Hey Dante!

Cool video. Even though it was a little light of specifics, I know you don't want to give your idea away.

I wish you the best of luck. Hopefully you can build a nice prototype and wow us all here.

[Dantesinferno]

@cybereality thanks for the reply, ill be done with the 3d model by tomorrow night. i may have to rescale it once i get the measurements of the wizdish, but ill be able to "show" you guys what I'm talking about. thanks again!

[FingerFlinger]

Have you messaged Flassan yet? He is the inventor of the WizDish. And good luck with your project! Locomotion is a big nut to crack.

[brantlew]

I wish you luck. Locomotion is a big remaining problem with VR and difficult to solve. Collaboration is crucial because locomotion draws upon so many separate disciplines that no one person can hope to master all of.

[android78]

cool - always great to see what people come up with. Eventually, I think we'll get a real winner of an idea for locomtion, and the more people trying different things the better IMHO. All the better that you're putting up a blog for it.
Regarding the specs of the wizdish, you could try contacting the maker himself. He's Flassan. He was pretty good at responding to queries in the wizdish thread in the past. Also, you could try the following (if you haven't already):
http://www.wizdish.com/contact-us/

[Dantesinferno]

Thanks guys for the fast replies and the support! I'm rendering the models as we speak, they should be posted in about 30 mins along with a video!

[Dantesinferno]

Hey guys here are my prototype 3d models. Before you check them out first watch the video Below.
[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxQ-2jNs6j8[/youtube-hd]
(My little brother was trolling my video near the end with his nonsense noises.)

I was a little skeptical about showing my prototype online but I need the help and support. I have my models protected under the commons creative license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/ And i'm consulting a patent lawyer.
Basically the wizdish is the base of the design. The lightweight metal (either a titanium or aluminum alloy) will be used to hold up the player. their would be a harness within the metal belt, that will hold up most of the players weight and just allow them to slide their feet on the wizdish without too much resistance. the two stands are going to be held up with modified jack stands. I plan to create a concave or convex track around the wizdish that allows for wheels(which are connected "under" the jackstands) to be able to smoothly rotate around the wizdish. If you have any questions or suggestions to help aid in my prototype please leave a post. I will try to do a blog every week. I really can't physically start until i receive the wizdish and its measurements. So it may take a while. I have tried to email the creator "Flassan;" i'm still waiting on another reply though. Sorry for the bad grammar. This is one of my first 3d models.. lol so they aren't perfect, but you get the idea.

[zalo]

On second thought, try JanVR: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16294

[Dantesinferno]

I FEEL COMPLETELY STUPID..... but i'm still going to go through with it. Wow.. great minds think alike.

[cybereality]

Interesting concept.

I had a similar idea about using a harness, but I was imagining hanging it from the ceiling (but of course then you have problems when turning). Your idea actually looks like it may work, though it really depends on how much weight the harness and the metal ring can hold.

Looks promising though, good luck.

Also, don't be discouraged. I'm sure other people have thought of similar things before, there's still nothing on the market ready to buy of something like this. And there is always room for competition. Keep going.

[PalmerTech]

I agree.

Locomotion and motion simulation are two big problems in VR that have yet to be solved in a cost effective way, and a lot of the problems can only be solved through brainstorming, prototyping, and trial and error.

[Dantesinferno]

Thanks guys so much. I'm going to press forward and still create this idea. If anyone can get a hold of "Flassan" that would be great! i emailed him about the measurements, but I haven't received anything back yet. ill keep you guys posted weekly!

[brantlew]

I was a little skeptical about showing my prototype online but I need the help and support. I have my models protected under the commons creative license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/ And i'm consulting a patent lawyer.

Someone posted this around here recently, and I think it's got some good common sense talk about patents - especially for a niche product like this.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7BL1O0xCcY[/youtube]

[geekmaster]

If you cannot find prior art, it just means you did not look in all the right places. Check this out:
http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publicat ... p-96-2.pdf

Wells, M.; Peterson, B.; Aten, J. (1996). The Virtual Motion Controller: A Sufficient-Motion Walking Simulator. In proceedings of VRAIS '97, (pp. 1-8). Los Alamitos, CA, USA: IEEE Computer Society Press.

It was published in 1996. It recommends a flat circle in the center of the dish, for "home" position feedback.

It contains a photo that shows a dish and rotating harness setup, similar to the Virtuix Omni:


Note especially that virtual translation (and virtual rotation) do not need to match their physical counterparts. The brain has a 10 minute adaptation period to changes in proportion, according to that document:


Here is their 1998 online book on the subject. It may be worth a read:
http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publicat ... index.html

This newer version of their ODT strays away from the harness and walking. Instead, it uses a curved fiberglass surface mounted on four weight sensor.


Travel velocity and direction are determined by offset from center. You step in the direction you want to move, with distance proportional to speed, and step back to center to stop (TL;DR). For some reason they seem to have scrapped walking in a harness from their earlier model, in favor of crouching ability.

That "harness and support free" ODT shown above appears to be the same basic design as described in the WizDish patent, and may be considered as "prior art". I saw elsewhere that this newer version was being used for military training. Although it supports foot sliding like the WizDish, the preferred use is leaning, like a hovercraft (using built-in pressure sensors).

[Dantesinferno]

Well I did think about the possible "off balance" in the center due to the weight not being distributed symmetrically .. I'll probably have to wait until I create it to see how much "smoothness" is reduced. The harness won't hold all your weight, so your legs would still partially act like a "3rd" leg to the system . If it does seem like to much of a problem, I thought of the idea of adding a large circular cog/gear around the wizdish. And have 2 smaller cogs/gears under the jackstands and have them rotate around the larger cog/gear horizantally like that. Tell what you think ?

[Dantesinferno]

[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwxdcg7sW0Y[/youtube-hd]
Okay, so i had a revelation as i was sleeping. If we can recreate virtually running forward while actually running in place, why can't we virtually turn( by tricking our minds) while actually turning in place. I haven't thought of a perfect solution, but it sounds much better than having moving parts. The rift would be our eyes, and our eyes tell us if we are actually turning. our body just does the same motion over and over: turn feet, hips, and upper body follows. Well with the whiz dish your feet could slide back to place, creating the illusion that you turned your lower body first, and then your upper. tell me what you guys think? maybe a gyroscope could be attached to your waist and if it moves past a certain point the game knows you want to turn? tell me your thoughts.

[geekmaster]

The sensation of turning really needs corresponding vestibular (inner ear) stimulation, proportional to perceived visual rotation (but not necessarily the same rate of rotation).

Such vestibular stimulation can be done by phyisically turning (using an ODT), or through Galvanic (electrical) Vestibular Stimulation (GVS). GVS uses a low voltage DC current through electrodes behind the ears, to control your perception of rotation. It is generally recognized as safe too. Even Palmer Luckey has played with GVS:



But many people will be afraid of pumping electricity through their head, so physical turning will remain an important method of vestibular stimulation (to prevent VR motion sickness).

[Dantesinferno]

WOW, great info geekmaster. I am now starting to research into galvanic vestibular stimulation. So far it seems pretty safe. If i can calibrate it to help simulate turning and balance, this could really work well! thanks again. I'll be looking up on DIY galvanic vestibular stimulation devices. I'll be very cautious. i'll show you guys my results soon once i buy the parts. i'm still waiting on my answer from flassan about the wizdish, if anyone can get a hold of him that would be great, i'm looking to purchase one!

[geekmaster]

WOW, great info geekmaster. I am now starting to research into galvanic vestibular stimulation. So far it seems pretty safe. If i can calibrate it to help simulate turning and balance, this could really work well! thanks again. I'll be looking up on DIY galvanic vestibular stimulation devices. I'll be very cautious. i'll show you guys my results soon once i buy the parts. i'm still waiting on my answer from flassan about the wizdish, if anyone can get a hold of him that would be great, i'm looking to purchase one!

Be sure to power it from a battery (not a power supply). And be sure any connections to a computer are opto-isolated (or wireless). You do not want any possibility of an electronics failure to send lethal electric current from house wiring into your body.

There are GVS threads here at MTBS3D, and you can also start your research at WikiPedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_v ... timulation

A patient undergoing GVS noted:
"I felt a mysterious, irresistible urge to start walking to the right whenever the researcher turned the switch to the right. I was convinced — mistakenly — that this was the only way to maintain my balance. The phenomenon is painless but dramatic. Your feet start to move before you know it. I could even remote-control myself by taking the switch into my own hands."

GVS has been studied for over 100 years, with no reported harmful side-effects:
http://jp.physoc.org/content/517/3/631.full

Although known about for 100 years or so, galvanic vestibular stimulation attracted relatively little interest until some 15 years ago. ... The stimulation technique is very simple. The only apparatus required comprises a 9 V battery, a switch and a means of controlling the current. A small current (around 1.0 mA) passed between the mastoid processes for a second or two will cause a person to sway if they are standing with their eyes closed. The simplicity of the technique, however, belies the complexity of the body response it evokes. Lund & Broberg (1983) discovered a key principle when they showed that the direction of the evoked movement was always in the direction of the anodal ear. No matter how much a person changed their posture by twisting their body and/or neck about a vertical axis, the current always made them sway towards the anode. Thus, the electrically evoked vestibular input is capable of perturbing a complex motor process, one that is able to take into account the relative positions of all body segments from the head to the feet.

In other words, GVS perturbs your sense of balance, evoking a full-body response to "rebalance".

I previously posted a schematic for DIY GVS here:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 256#p85256

Notice that this circuit is just a basic H-bridge (commonly used for DC motor control). You can get tiny inexpensive IC chips for that these days. But then again, you can harvest transistors out of dead CFL light bulbs, if you get the urge to do it now. The "Positive" and "Neg." control inputs are for computer control.

For manual control, you can go simpler and use only the battery and variable resistor, and perhaps a cross-connected DPDT switch to reverse the current:

[Dantesinferno]

Thanks so much bro. My only problem is that once i configure and callibrate all these things Is that i am pretty new to programming so i would need some kind of software that could help or someone good at programming to help direct all these different input and outputs into.. say a game engine... i'm still a newbie and in highschool. I am however willing to learn! I also do know how to write and understand basic python script.

[PalmerTech]

Long term use of GVS definitely has potential for harmful side effects. It can be done safely, but it has to be done perfectly right. Not 90% right or even 99% right, more like 99.9%.

[Dantesinferno]

What do you suggest than, what are the possible errors @palmertech ? and I still have my earlier prototype to fall back on so if it is too dangerous i'll reconsider.

[Dantesinferno]

I found this article online on the NATIONAL SPACE BIOMEDICAL
RESEARCH INSTITUTe website about GVS: http://www.nsbri.org/newsflash/indivArt ... icleID=133

[geekmaster]

Long term use of GVS definitely has potential for harmful side effects. It can be done safely, but it has to be done perfectly right. Not 90% right or even 99% right, more like 99.9%.

Where can I read more about those safety limits?

Are you referring to standard practices for electrical connections to the body (battery power and optical isolation)? If so, you should not bypass safety precautions even 0.1% of the time.

Of course, as I mentioned, you need to prevent a path for dangerous current flow even under the worst of conditions. This report also mentions using LC filters to prevent RF pickup at the electrodes (such as when used near radio transmitters):
Functional MRI of galvanic vestibular stimulation
http://jn.physiology.org/content/80/5/2699.full.pdf

An adapted set-up including LC filters tuned for resonance at the Larmor frequency protected the volunteers against burns through radio-frequency pickup by the stimulation electrodes. Control experiments ensured that potentially harmful effects or degradation of the functional images did not occur.

This study was looking for adverse effects of GVS:
Minor adverse effects of galvanic vestibular stimulation in persons with stroke and healthy individuals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21879800

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: Galvanic vestibular stimulation (GVS) induces polarity-specific activations in the vestibular nerves and upstream in the vestibular and parietotemporal cortices as well as sub-cortical regions. This makes it an attractive technique for cognitive neuromodulation. However, systematic studies regarding adverse effects of GVS are unavailable. Thus, this study assessed adverse effects during and after sub-sensory GVS (mean: 0.6 mA) and GVS with 1.5 mA.
METHODS: Two hundred and fifty-five GVS sessions delivered to 55 persons with stroke and 30 healthy individuals were analysed using a 34-item-questionnaire including potential symptoms and rating scales for adverse effects.
RESULTS: The most frequent symptoms during and after GVS were slight itching (mean: 10.2%) and tingling (mean: 10.7%) underneath the electrodes. Healthy individuals and persons with stroke did not differ in their incidence and rated intensity of adverse effects, nor did persons with or without unilateral spatial neglect. Adverse effects were found more frequently with GVS with 1.5 mA as with sub-sensory GVS. Participants were unable to differentiate real from sham conditions during sub-sensory GVS. Importantly, neither seizures nor vertigo or nausea were observed.
CONCLUSION: Sub-sensory GVS and GVS with 1.5 mA induce very few and mild adverse effects in healthy and persons with stroke and are safe when safety guidelines are followed.

I have searched for adverse effects before, and found very little.

The main problem is that too much current (more 1.0 to 1.5mA for most people) can cause itching at the electrodes. But these local MTBS3D guys found that 2.25mA was the sweet spot for GVS response:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=15403

The rig we set up was just a couple of gel electrodes from a muscle stimulator, a variable bench power supply, and an ammeter in line to check what current was necessary for the stimulation to occur. We also tried building a constant current regulator using an LM317, but found that it didn't operate at the low amperage necessary for GVS. We found that 1.5mA was the threshold for feeling the effect, 2.25mA was the sweet spot, and anything above 3mA was uncomfortable. We also found that the thresholds vary somewhat per person.

They did the HUGE safety violation by using a benchtop power supply. Do NOT do this! Some of these devices have dangerous failure modes. I sure hope that they AT LEAST used an isolation transformer!

Another study used 5.0mA on their test subjects:
What does galvanic vestibular stimulation actually activate: response
http://www.frontiersin.org/Neuro-Otolog ... 00148/full

They have demonstrated that strong (5 mA) GVS applied continuously to alert humans in darkness causes weak nystagmus, with average velocities of about 5°/s (MacDougall et al., 2002, 2003, 2005). This nystagmus undoubtedly originated from activation of the semicircular canals. They claim that this refutes our general conclusion that the predominant activation of the vestibular system during GVS is through the otolith system, a conclusion based on a wide range of studies in which GVS induced a sense of roll, ocular counter-torsion, postural sway, and body tilt but not nystagmus, vertigo, or a sense of rotation. The results were uniform across these diverse studies, although some were conducted in darkness or with the eyes closed. ... In these studies, currents of 2 mA induced a sense of rolling but never rotation or vertigo ...

It would also make sense that excessive time under GVS could cause brain adaptation, requiring another adaptation period when you stop GVS sessions.

For safety, I would use a small battery (9v radio battery) to power the GVS device, so that it cannot deliver excessive current even with a circuit faliure.

@PalmerTech: Are you aware of any other potential safety concerns?

[geekmaster]

I found this article online on the NATIONAL SPACE BIOMEDICAL
RESEARCH INSTITUTe website about GVS: http://www.nsbri.org/newsflash/indivArt ... icleID=133

If they were using GVS on (expensively trained) space shuttle pilots, how dangerous could it be (assuming basic safety precautions are ALWAYS followed)?

[Dantesinferno]

I emailed the doctor who conducted the project. His name is Dr. Stephen T. Moore . I hope that it would be able to be used with my treadmill, it could enhance the game so much. If it isn't added though because of safety reasons, do you think the experience would still be immersive without your Vesitibular telling you that your turning? I'm waiting on Dr Stephens response. I don't think it would be that dangerous, but i would definitely like to hear @palmertech 's side of the story and the Doctors.

[PalmerTech]

I should clarify: There is no proof of long term harm from use of GVS, but there is potential for short tern harm.

In the short term, though, there are all kinds of problems with GVS, at least for a consumer product. Supposing that the electrical side is safe, and supposing that there are no issues with immediate discomfort, you still have the issue of trying to override the human balance system. When people/animals damage their inner ear, they manage to adapt fairly quickly, though it takes a long time for years of unconscious training to undo itself.

Because of the massive variability in humans (Size, shape, skin conductivity, existing issues/compensations in their vestibular system, etc), it is difficult to make a perfect GVS stimulator. It might work very well in general, but it is not practical/possible to tune it for each user. Binaural audio is in a similar position.

What happens, then, if a person is receiving slightly faulty stimulus for a long period of time? It seems very likely that their vestibular system would teach itself to compensate. Upon going back into the real world, it is almost certain that their sense of balance and movement would be impaired! Some people would be worse impacted than others, and potentially suffer from sensations of vertigo and nausea, similar to the "Bed Spins" that heavy alcohol consumption can cause in some cases. Imagine the bad press, imagine the accidents, imagine the lawsuits! Using GVS in a controlled, perfectly calibrated experimental setting using astronauts that have been selected and trained specifically for their resistance to motion sickness does not easily translate to consumer product use.

[Dantesinferno]

LOL thanks for the quick reply @palmertech . hmmmm so GVS is off the table. I have a question tho. I don't have the rift in hand right now, but i am going to record a video and put the link up with the question in it, because the video explains it better . it'll be up in like 10-15 mins.

[geekmaster]

... When people/animals damage their inner ear, they manage to adapt fairly quickly, though it takes a long time for years of unconscious training to undo itself. ...

After an auto accident decades ago, it took me many months to adapt. I would be standing perfectly still, and the damn FLOOR would come up and slap me in the head! Really! I sensed absolutely no motion, but the room was sure rotating fast. It took me a moment to shift my perception between wall and floor. At first, I had to learn to align my body to vertical and horizontal visual cues. Over time, my vestibular system recovered (but I still get "dizzy spells").

[geekmaster]

For LEGAL reasons, any GVS option should probably be in KIT form (with snap together parts), with adequate disclaimers. Even visual obstruction will cause falling problems (which already happen with just diverted attention in motion capture games). Adding GVS on top of Rift visual obstruction is just one more thing to blame when somebody trips over their kids or pets, and wants somebody else to replace their expensive broken HDTV or pay their medical bills. Like the Rift has its place with VR and FPV enthusiasts, GVS will have those who want it (even if they lack the skills to DIY, hence the "snap together" aspect).

Too much time in VR may cause "brain calibration" problems for some people, taking time to adapt to reality again. Perhaps the Rift may need to require a disclaimer like my LG passive 3D HDTV pops up every time I select 3D mode. But that would be just plain annoying. EDIT: Such unwanted "brain calibration" is called "maladaptive neuroplasticity" and most published research has to do with phantom limb pain, and how compensating for injury or stroke can delay or prevent full recovery by retraining the brain for the compensatory behavior instead of recovering, but it also seems to apply to recent discoveries in tinnitus (ringing ears) and how to treat them. Such maladaptive neuroplasticity could well apply to GVS and even to too much time in VR as well.

Alghough GVS will be a fun experiment in VR (especially with flying games), I want an ODT, but it must be able to fold and store under a bed, and I will want an overhead slip-ring connector to support unlimited rotation.

[Dantesinferno]

Hey no Hard feelings about the GVS post, i really thought it was interesting @geekmaster

Here is my video explaining my question
[youtube-hd]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_vqG5znbhs[/youtube-hd]
Sorry for it being rotated wrong. i was using the camera on the wrong side.
I also have a solution for prone and crouching

[geekmaster]

Hey no Hard feelings about the GVS post, i really thought it was interesting @geekmaster

Here is my video explaining my question
...
Sorry for it being rotated wrong. i was using the camera on the wrong side.
I also have a solution for prone and crouching

Without physically rotating (leaving GVS off the table), there would still be a mismatch between visual and vestibular rotation, which will cause motion sickness in some (many) people. That is what stimulated the GVS discussion in the first place, when you wanted to avoid physical rotation in your previous video. As I mentioned previously, without GVS, you really need physical rotation.

Studies show that the degree of rotation between visual and vestibular does not need to match, but must remain proportional. You brain will adapt to the ratio in about 10 minutes. When exiting VR back to 1:1 ratio, it will take another 10 minutes to adapt. I posted links to this research somewhere recently (perhaps this thread). But it remains important that there be some (not too small) ratio between them that maintains proportional speed and direction.

Not rotating your head at all WILL cause motion sickness for many people, although you can learn to tolerate that over time with sessions of increasing duration. Having a solution that REQUIRES learning to tolerate it with increasing sessions that always end in vertigo is not a good selling feature, and requires a degree of dedication and persistence than only VR enthusiasts will endure.

IMHO, your current proposed solution is not for the general public. You need a solution that allows real physical rotation, such as your first proposal.

The reason for an ODT in the first place is to INCREASE immersion, and motion sickness will only accomplish the opposite reaction. Your new idea may still work for some people, especially with practice, but probably not for everybody.

[Dantesinferno]

Thanks @geekmaster for the quick reply... I'll probably end up going with my first model. Do you have any info on some heavy duty wheels that can support large quantities of weight? And aslo, do you think i should add another stand in front of the waist to balance the weight. 2 in the back and one in the front? I didnt want to add it at first because it could possibly get in the way of the players hands and legs. I'm going to do some research online for the wheels as well. I'm probably going to use wood for the stands for my first prototype due to wood being cheaper than metal. But I would definitely either use heavy duty rubber wheels or metal wheels. I'm not sure how metal wheels would rub against wood well, which would you recommend?

[geekmaster]

Thanks @geekmaster for the quick reply... I'll probably end up going with my first model. Do you have any info on some heavy duty wheels that can support large quantities of weight? And aslo, do you think i should add another stand in front of the waist to balance the weight. 2 in the back and one in the front? I didnt want to add it at first because it could possibly get in the way of the players hands and legs. I'm going to do some research online for the wheels as well. I'm probably going to use wood for the stands for my first prototype due to wood being cheaper than metal. But I would definitely either use heavy duty rubber wheels or metal wheels. I'm not sure how metal wheels would rub against wood well, which would you recommend?

You probably need three equally spaced supports around the circumference, for maximum stability and strength. For wheels, perhaps they need to be angled outward, riding in a circular track. Or construct a large turntable bearing with a hollow center that the upper fixed platform plate attaches through. A turntable bearing would prevent the upright supports from detaching from the circular glide rail.

If you want to experiment with wheels, rubber would be less noisy and more forgiving. You could put a layer of vinyl flooring or other plastic over the wood as a layer of protection.

The important thing is safety, and you want something that does not wear out quickly while supporting a load, and does not have exposed lubrication that can attract dust and dirt, causing premature wear. It must be easy to keep clean, and must be safe with nearby children and pets. No crushed fingers or toes. No derailing with side or impact loads. Ability to support weight beyond what seems reasonable (safety margin). Typical "furniture design" engineering, but with extra attention to detail for moving parts. I am no expert (just common sense). You really need to consult a design expert for your final consumer-friendly version...

[Dantesinferno]

Hmmmm the gliderail idea seems very very interesting.. The only problem I possibly think I would have would be making the gliderail circular . And i could then put stationary circular plastic over the top of it that just allows the holster beams to slide around and not expose the inner glide rail... Thanks for the ideas.. Hmm the design aspect would be easy after I create the base model. Any ideas on how to create a circular glide/slide rail.. Hmmm I'm gonna do some research. And I still haven't received any info back on the wizdish.. I emailed flassan, and sent him a direct message. I would call but I can't make international calls

[PalmerTech]

Give him some time, he is in the UK and the weekend just ended.

[Dantesinferno]

http://tjnbr.en.alibaba.com/product/701 ... erproduct1 these would be good if I could find a way to rotate them around Into a circle .. Maybe heat? Lol a blacksmith?

[Dantesinferno]

And @palmertech sorry I didn't mean to sound rude. I just get alittle over excited . Especially when it comes to projects

[geekmaster]

Hmmmm the gliderail idea seems very very interesting.. The only problem I possibly think I would have would be making the gliderail circular . And i could then put stationary circular plastic over the top of it that just allows the holster beams to slide around and not expose the inner glide rail... Thanks for the ideas.. Hmm the design aspect would be easy after I create the base model. Any ideas on how to create a circular glide/slide rail.. Hmmm I'm gonna do some research. And I still haven't received any info back on the wizdish.. I emailed flassan, and sent him a direct message. I would call but I can't make international calls

Check out JanVR's new thread (and the videos). He has his rotary joint at the top of the upright supports. Fixed supports would allow them to be attached more securely, allowing them to be asymetrically spread around the circumference as he does. His harness attaches to a top "slip ring" (the part strapped to his body that looks a little bit like a toilet seat).

Notice that this basic "Sufficient-Motion Walking Simulator" ODT design (used by flassan, JanVR, and yourself) originated in the 90's:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... =0#p100627
Notice that the upper "slip ring" support was a hoop, supported by what appears to be three pulleys. It is a similar design as that used by JanVR, but his upper slip ring is supported by his body instead of riding in a set of pulleys. Although the photo from 1996 shows a flat surface, the accompanying documentation mentions using a dish with a flat center (for home position feedback, which they thought was important). I do not see the flat home position on JanVR's design. Flassan's design does not use supports or a harness, but requires constant shuffling foot contact that looks like it would cause too much stress and strain for my rather worn-out knee joints.

Beware that too much competition between developers wanting to sell very similar products may cause angers to flare at unexpected times, with claims of who is stealing which ideas from whom. Intellectual Property is a touchy subject, and beware that these ideas are not that new to begin with (see the document and photos I posted earlier in your thread). I hope we do not have friction between competing developers. We really do need a mixture of new ideas here, to add to the old stuff where this basic design originated back in the 90's. Although that project from the 90's later abandoned the "sliding foot" approach for more of a "leaning hovercraft" dish mechanism. There may be patents on one of more variations of the dish-based ODT, so beware of that when developing your design.

I am currently a huge fan of JanVR's implementation. I am anxious to participate in his Kickstarter campaign, when he gets to that point. Watching the videos of flassan's WizDish looks like using it may be too hard on my poor knees. It really doesn't help if flassan is not responding to your emails. Did you try sending him a PM here? For international calls, you can use a calling card with a toll free number. Beware of international time zones though, and do not call at DESTINATION meal times or bed time (or perhaps during business hours, depending on whether he has a day job or if the WizDish is his day job).

I am interested to see what your implementation can add to the mix. But I really have very little in the way of additional ideas or advice to contribute to it. I have other interests and activities demanding my attention.

TTYL