ST1080 Compatibility

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Frogztar
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ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

Hi guys,

Was reading about possible issues with the ST1080 as I am going to pre-order one. 720p60 seems fine, but I would like to get the 1080p24 3D working for gaming; obviously there would be problems associated with this, but was reading about 1080p24 Frame Packing HDTV's and PC games and it seems as long as your rendered FPS (vs. displayed FPS) is decent and V-Sync is disabled, games are playable. Do you think this would work for the ST1080?

Also, what would you suggest for the 720p60/1080p24 Frame Packing format? I have crossfire 5850's and was thinking AMD HD3D with either tri-def or iZ3D. Would I be better off with Nvidia and thier 3DTV driver (US$40 on thier website)?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by brantlew »

While we're on the subject, I have an open question that I know nobody has brought up. Anybody want to make a guess as to what regular PC desktop 2D resolutions are supported out-of-the-box by this unit. Call me crazy, but I actually have scenarios where I would like to go with much lower resolutions (maybe as low as 800x600) and was curious how the hardware would support it. I wonder if they have hardware scaling or use software drivers? I wonder if they only support wide aspect ratio resolutions?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by cybereality »

I have tried playing games at 1080P24, and I did not enjoy it. However I also mostly play FPS games, where a smooth framerate is often necessary. There may be other types of games where 24FPS is acceptable. However with most action-oriented games you will want (or need) 60FPS.

@brantlew: No idea what they will support. For sure they will have 1080P and 720P, and hopefully some other common resolutions but who knows?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

Yeah, FPS would need to be run on 720p60. I'm more going for rpg/third person/top-down strategy, so I'm glad to hear someone has had some success with 1080p24.

I'm guessing GPU scaling is also available - I use it when the monitor is 16:9 but displaying in 4:3. I'm assuming that in 2D, you can adjust the display like a regular monitor. The example on the website is a 100 inch screen at 10 feet - I tried using a 46 inch HDTV at 1080p for a while and was not that pleasant.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by pierreye »

Min 60hz is required for VR as if the refresh rate is too low, it will induce disconnected feeling when using head tracking. I had pinpoint the main issue for VR gaming that give you headache due to framerate is too low and/or bad 3D implementation.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by WiredEarp »

Good point pierreye. A quick calc shows it will mean at least 40ms per frame. Which means that the perceptual loop may be too much. However, we have to take into account that the game loop itself (polling tracker, etc) may well be running much faster than the 24fps, so it might not be a MASSIVE extra lag on top of this 40ms. It could be workable (isn't 50ms generally considered what VR's should be under in the perceptual loop?) but will entirely depend on the rest of the game loop and the time it consumes etc...
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

Ok, SMD have updated the specs for the ST1080 and have made a blog post showing it now supports 1080p 30hz Top-Bottom (assuming this means one image 1920x2160 with the right eye rendered in the top half and left eye in the bottom). 30hz should be bearable for gaming, what sort of noticable increase in performance do you think it would make when compared to 1080p 24hz Frame Packing?

Also, since they have just added this support and have said more updates will be coming soon, can we assume these updates are software/firmware based rather than hardware?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

1080p@24 hz shown below. A lot of tearing and choppping seem to be eliminated when v-sync is disabled and the games framerate (not display framrate as it is fixed at 24hz) is high. I'm thinking 30hz should be a lot more bearable than 24hz ad the 24hz quality is better than I would have expected.

[youtube]v=8vgRiKhyqww[/youtube]
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

WOO!! Literally 5 minutes after placing my pre-order, SMD released this blog post:

We're pleased to announce that we've added a side by side format to our list of supported 3D video formats. To summarize, here's a list of all the 3D formats that we current support:

720p @ 60Hz Frame Packing (full resolution)
1080p @ 24Hz Frame Packing (full resolution)
1080p @ 30Hz Top and Bottom (full resolution)
1080p @ 60Hz Side by Side (half resolution)


This HMD is looking better and better
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by brantlew »

Oh that's awesome! I think those guys are reading this website because we've all been asking for more detailed information on formats. 60hz SBS is what everyone is looking for right?

I just posted about my hands-on experience with the Sony today. I REALLY wanted to buy it but it still has some major flaws that I just can't get past. But the experience did amp me up again for the ST1080, because I really want that kind of image quality.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by brantlew »

This SBS news is really great, but I have to admit I'm still a bit confused about formatting. Can somebody clarify this for me.

ok, so I understand the structure of the 3D formats (frame packing, SBS, half/full resolutions) in terms of the HDMI protocol. So if you've got a video already encoded in those formats and burned to disk, I understand how the receiver splits apart and interprets the incoming signal. What I don't understand is how non-HDMI resolutions and frame rates are translated and transmitted through HDMI.

So for example...let's say I've got a 3D youtube video that is 640x480 half-resolution SBS. How does that video get transmitted to the receiver (monitor/TV/HMD) so that it gets interpreted and displayed in 3D? I assume that first the video driver upscales the 640x480 video to the target resolution - lets say 1920x1080. But wouldn't the video card then just create a standard 2D HDMI video signal and send that out the HDMI port. So the device would just display the two images side by side. Doesn't there have to be an encoder stuck in there somewhere to actually generate the proper 3D HDMI protocol headers so that the receiver knows how to interpret the signal? Where does that happen? Does the device display driver perform this operation? Is it a function of the video card? How do you enable it? Do you have to run the video through a special media player?

Does anybody here understand this?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by WiredEarp »

SBS would be great @ 1080P! I have heaps of SBS 3D movies, and the cool thing is you don't really notice any loss of resolution once you watch them in 3D. Your eyes seem to combine them very well.

Is it possible to output SBS, however, using (for example) 3D Vision or Tridef?

edit: @ brantlew: I think I understand what you are saying. I think this is all done on the display device end. IE, its a straight 2D stream the whole way, but then your TV is turned into 3D mode and interprets that data for display differently.
However, whether there are headers etc is a good point. You'd assume so. Certainly there dont seem to be any in 3D SBS avi files tho, I have to select the format they are in manually.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

@ brantlew: I've been wondering the same thing, but my concern was really more with gaming than movies. I'm guessing there is a standard for SBS (coloured strip in the middle for example) which the controller would recognise the SBS format with and then split the images. I've been wondering if HDMI can support 3840x1080 @ 60hz SBS that way, after compression, each image would be 1920x1080.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

Nice email from SMD:


Dear Email Subscriber,

There is one week left for pre-ordering the ST1080 at the discounted price of $699! After March 21, the price goes back up to $799.

Sales have been very brisk, and we at SMD have been very, very encouraged by the global response. So, to all you pre-order customers, thank you!

We've been updating our product specs page for the ST1080 on our website. Some of the updates include:
Earbuds are replaceable via 3.5mm mono jacks on each ear stem of the HMD
Controller now has 3.5mm stereo output jack for user's to use their own headphones
Confirmed that the HMD cable, which connects the HMD to the Controller, is integrated with the HMD
Confirmed that the head strap is included
3D formats supported: 720p/60Hz Frame Packing (full resolution), 1080p/24Hz Frame Packing (full resolution), 1080p/30Hz Top and Bottom (1920x2160), 1080p/60Hz Side by Side (half resolution)
External battery pack is not included in the base product.
Compatible with iPhone 4S (requires Apple Digital AV Adapter) and Droid X mobile phones.
Compatible with iPad 2 (requires Apple Digital AV Adapater)
We are continuing to make progress towards production ramp up, and we're excited for the market response once its in your hands. Thanks again.

Sincerely,

Paul Jin
CEO, SiliconMicroDisplay
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by CyberVillain »

I'm no expert on nvidia 3d vision formats, does this mean we can game in 60 on a nvidia pc?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

@CyberVillain: Have always been able to game in 60Hz, but only at 1366x768@60hz when using a single HDMI connection. Since the ST1080, scaling could really effect picture quality. The SBS format proposed for the ST1080 compresses each 1080p image into one, giving each eye an image of 960x1080 image which is then stretched back to 1080p. Gaming at 60hz will always be possible, but we are just speculating as to the image quality. I'm planning on gaming at 60hz and will experiment to find the format with best image quality.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by CyberVillain »

But nvidia 3d vision supports 1080p@60hz, what format is that? I guess its just sending two images at 120hz?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

There are lots of formats supported by Nvidia, 1080p@60hz would be used (usually) for a 3D monitor or 3DHDTV using either polarized or shutter glasses. There are a few formats specific to monitors and tvs - page-flipping, checkerboard etc. When talking about HMDs, there is one screen for each eye thus halving the display output. This is usually limited by the hardware in the HMD itself rather than the graphics card or driver used. While it is true (technically) that you can output 1080p@60hz usinf frame packing, side-by-side or something similar, but in reality you are either splitting the refresh between the two screens (making it actually 30hz) or compressing images. This iss applicable mainly to head mounted displays - there are plenty of 3D monitors, projectors and TVs which can do 1080p@60hz
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by CyberVillain »

IF 3dmontiors/shutter glasses can do 120hz over DVI-D than there is not reason that ST1080 cant do it. It doesnt matter that a HMD has dedicated panels for each eye...

If you read this SMD implement Nvidia 3d vision support at 60hz and I'll buy one!
There is no reason for them to left out nvidia owners since thats the biggest platform for stereo 3d gaming (There must be more nvidia 3d vision ready PC's out there then there are PS3's)
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by WiredEarp »

I don't understand Frogztar. If there is a double width 1080p @ 60hz signal coming in, all that needs to be done is to split that into two images and feed one to each eye. There is no reason why that could not happen at the same 60hz.

@ CyberVillain: are you saying the ST1080 is not 3D Vision compatible?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by brantlew »

WiredEarp wrote:I think this is all done on the display device end. IE, its a straight 2D stream the whole way, but then your TV is turned into 3D mode and interprets that data for display differently.
However, whether there are headers etc is a good point. You'd assume so. Certainly there dont seem to be any in 3D SBS avi files tho, I have to select the format they are in manually.
That's how it happens when you have a non-HDMI source. For example, the Vuzix uses a VGA signal that has little to no protocol so the only way for the Vuzix to know that it is receiving a 3D signal versus a 2D signal is with a hardware switch. So you toggle 3D on and the hardware starts splitting the signal in half.

But HDMI has specific protocols for 3D, so it seems like it would rely on the protocol handshake to determine how it should interpret the incoming signal. So it would seem that either the SMD device driver could encode a 3D HDMI signal or maybe it relies on upstream software to generate that signal. Certainly at least for the standard frame packing protocols.

Now maybe the half-resolution format is done differently since that is not really part of the HDMI standard. Maybe half resolution is just sent as a 2D frame and a toggle signals the hardware how to interpret this frame (just like the VGA implementation). But I am just entirely speculating...
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by CyberVillain »

WiredEarp wrote:I don't understand Frogztar. If there is a double width 1080p @ 60hz signal coming in, all that needs to be done is to split that into two images and feed one to each eye. There is no reason why that could not happen at the same 60hz.

@ CyberVillain: are you saying the ST1080 is not 3D Vision compatible?
It will probably work using Nvidia 3DTV like Sony HMZ.. But that only support HDMI 1.4 standards (1080p@24hz). Since SMD listens to their customers they shoudl also support 3D vision natively so we can get 120hz / 60 per eye modes
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by love2scoot »

Re: 1080P @ 120Hz, this is a hardware limitation, not a software limitation (this was briefly covered in another topic area). Currently there are *almost* no 300MHz chips on the market for HDMI, meaning that while the overall bandwidth of the HDMI *specification* is sufficient for 120Hz 1080P, that almost no products out there can currently support this resolution and refresh rate. This has been the state of the market for many years as the jump to the 340MHz clock on HDMI was specified for HDMIv1.3 (way back when the PS3 premiered). In fact, the HDMI working group has publicly stated that the next step after 1.4b will expand the HDMI standard to include higher resolutions and higher refresh rates, so it looks like another base clock rate bump is in the cards just as we're catching up to the previous bump. For reference, the new 7000 series GPUs from AMD have HDMI ports capable of supporting 1080P@120Hz and the 4k upscaling Blu-Ray players from Sony include these faster chips.

nVidia's approach was to use a dual link DVI cable for connections to 3D monitors. Dual link cables make use of more signal pins so the underlying clock rate can remain lower, making higher resolution (like 1080P @ 120Hz) possible. I believe nVidia's 3D Play software pack allows the rendering chain to end in frame packed 3D that is compatible with current HDTVs, and is therefore limited to 720P@120Hz or 1080P@48Hz. What I don't know is if this requires use of a DVI->HDMI converter or if it will run natively off the HDMI connection of a supported nVidia card (I assume the latter but maybe someone else can chime in on this). Since DVI and HDMI are pin compatible formats (meaning you do not have to have any active electronics to convert from one format to the other), an interesting point is that *technically* the HDMI standard is capable of running a dual link DVI equivalent through a "Type B" connector, but there's never been a product that supports this connection type (and there will never be).

AMD's approach is not as tightly controlled as nVidia's and was started much later. As a result, their approach to 3d has not been as well received as nVidia's because their entire 3d ecosystem in not directly under their control. That said, some interesting things come out of this:
1) AMD made strides very quickly to multiple title support by relying on the existing middleware players TriDef and iZ3D.
2) AMD wrote their own quad buffer API and a few titles are able to use this natively without the use of middleware.
3) 3D output was originally limited to HDMI ports (although I've heard unconfirmed rumblings of Dual Link DVI support) with the same limitations as nVidia's 3D Play software approach.
4) More recently AMD has supported 1080P@120Hz using a DisplayPortv1.2 output on some of their newer cards (with the associated supporting DisplayPort monitors trickling into the market)
5) AMD has recently added 1080P@60Hz (30Hz per eye) frame packing to their supported 3D output options with the release of Catalyst version 12.1 back in late January.

Additionally, Microsoft has publically stated that DirectX11.1 will add a standardized quad buffer (finally, this should have happened long ago) so that developers can focus their efforts.

This looks like the ST1080 should have sufficient support for 3D formats regardless of which graphics adapter you have. 1080P@120Hz will have to come down the pipe later, along with supported products from GPU manufacturers and Consumer Electronics companies.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by brantlew »

One other tidbit I ran across. Rumor has it that the unit has no internal scaler for 2D which I guess means that you can't notch it down to VGA resolutions like 800x600, etc. I know that's not a big deal to most people, but if you've got an underpowered laptop and want to crank up frame rates by lowering resolutions, you might not be able to. (unless there is some middle-ware driver)
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by love2scoot »

That's good to know (even if just a rumor). While this will not be a problem for many modern uses, this could be a problem for two use cases (at least):
-MAME / Emulation
-VGA->HDMI converters
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by love2scoot »

So if we’re talking about compatibility we should have a table that clarifies where we stand with our current knowledge. This is by no means comprehensive, so I’m hoping for some collaboration on this.

720p 2D @ 60Hz
Source: Various computers and HD Compatible Consumer Electronics

1080p 2D @ 60Hz
Source: Various computers and HD Compatible Consumer Electronics

720p 3D @ 60Hz Frame Packing (full resolution)
Source: Most all computers / consumer electronics with 3D output.
Examples: PS3, AMD HD3D compliant hardware, nVidia 3DPlay Hardware

1080p 3D @ 24Hz Frame Packing (full resolution)
Source: Most all computers / consumer electronics with 3D output.
Examples: PS3 / BluRay Players, AMD HD3D compliant hardware, nVidia 3DPlay Hardware

1080p 3D @ 30Hz Top and Bottom (full resolution)
Source: Limited computer products / consumer electronics
Examples: AMD HD3D compliant hardware with Catalyst 12.1 or greater

1080p 3D @ 60Hz Side by Side (half resolution)
Source: Several computer products / consumer electronics
Examples: YouTube Videos (when played through compatible hardware), Satellite HDTV signals

Unknown:
Support for lower resolutions / refresh rates
Support for scaled video at resolutions other than 720p
Support for 1080i

Btw brantlew, I found this link that addresses some of your earlier questions:
http://www.best-3dtvs.com/what-is-full-hd-3d-fhd3d/
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by brantlew »

Thanks. An excellent compilation.

The info on the scaler seems legit since it's from someone who was communicating directly with SMD about this, but because of the source... ancjob... I listed it as a rumor... :lol:
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by WiredEarp »

If the ST1080 is not 3D Vision compatible, that is a big negative point for me, since the HMZ is 3D Vision compatible out of the box.
I don't really want to have to spend money on 3DTV Play, just to to use it to play games, when I've already shelled out for 3D Vision...
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by 3dvison »

Does anyone know if the 3D on the st1080 has more pop-out than the 3D on the Sony HMZ-T1 ?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by pierreye »

WiredEarp wrote:If the ST1080 is not 3D Vision compatible, that is a big negative point for me, since the HMZ is 3D Vision compatible out of the box.
I don't really want to have to spend money on 3DTV Play, just to to use it to play games, when I've already shelled out for 3D Vision...
If you have the 3D Vision dongle, then 3DTV Play is activated FOC.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by WiredEarp »

If you have the 3D Vision dongle, then 3DTV Play is activated FOC.
Awesome, thanks Pierreye.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

brantlew wrote:One other tidbit I ran across. Rumor has it that the unit has no internal scaler for 2D which I guess means that you can't notch it down to VGA resolutions like 800x600, etc. I know that's not a big deal to most people, but if you've got an underpowered laptop and want to crank up frame rates by lowering resolutions, you might not be able to. (unless there is some middle-ware driver)

I'd assume it could scale 720p in 2D. most hardware should be able to manage SHD if not FHD.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by cybereality »

I think love2scoot has summed it up pretty well on the technical aspects. Basically the limitations are on the HDMI chipsets, which likely wont catch up to the spec for another year or longer. Even if SMD splurged and got the new 300MHz chips, almost nothing else would support this (expect AMDs latest top of the line card). For this reason 1080P output on HDMI is limited to 24Hz. SMD has done their best by supporting 1080P30 over/under, but I am not sure how widespread compatibility will be for this non-standard format. At least with 1080P60 SBS, you know basically everything already supports that, which is great. It definitely makes me more interested in this product. So I am really glad they were able to do this. The other options would have been to use Dual Link DVI and support Nvidia's proprietary standard, which would have resulted in full quality 1080P 60Hz, but severly limited compatibility with everything else (no AMD, no PS3, no Blu-ray, etc.). Or they could have made their own proprietary standard (like VR920) and that would have been way worse. They did the right thing.

This should be supported out of box with AMD HD3D, and most likely will get Nvidia support (but this mostly hinges on SMDs business relationship with Nvidia). I have Andrew Fear (of Nvidia) quoted as saying they do not charge their partners any licensing fees to add compatibility to Nvidia 3DTV Play. However, they do white-list devices that meet their certification. So basically the ST1080 will not work (for frame-packing) on Nvidia GPUs unless Nvidia releases a patch specifically to enable support. But since the headset supports 1080P SBS, you can be sure iz3d/DDD drivers and stereoscopic player, YouTube3D, etc. will all work out-of-box.

From what I have read on the Nvidia forums, SBS 1080P looks better than 720P upscaled to 1080P. I can't confirm this, but it may be the case that it is the better format for something like this.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

Thanks cybereality and love2scoot, I think the main point was that it uses 1.4a HDMI formats. I'm not sure, but I think Nvidia might support it using the NVIDIA 3DTV drivers ($40 on their website) which support frame packing - will have to test when I get them.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by CyberVillain »

WiredEarp wrote:If the ST1080 is not 3D Vision compatible, that is a big negative point for me, since the HMZ is 3D Vision compatible out of the box.
I don't really want to have to spend money on 3DTV Play, just to to use it to play games, when I've already shelled out for 3D Vision...
What do you mean wired? I had to download (and soon pay for) nvidia 3dtv to get it to work, have you gotten the hmz to work directly with 3d vision?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by FingerFlinger »

What do you mean wired? I had to download (and soon pay for) nvidia 3dtv to get it to work, have you gotten the hmz to work directly with 3d vision?
I'm also curious about this.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by WiredEarp »

I thought it was stated somewhere it supported 3D Vision - maybe I misread it and that was just a reference to it needing the 3D Vision dongle.

@ CyberVillain: Pierreye just said that 3D Play is FOC if you have 3D Vision... or do you not have 3D Vision already?
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by space123321 »

I have been trying to get Nvidia 3dtv to work as well (as I already have 3d vision). Tridef is working great.

Turns out my graphics card will not support 3dtv as I have 2 9800 GTX's running... :(
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by cybereality »

Nvidia 3DTV Play is free if you already have the 3D Vision emitter. Otherwise its $40, which seems like a fair price considering the cost of other 3D drivers.
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Re: ST1080 Compatibility

Post by Frogztar »

Which is why I chose AMD for this generation
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