Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

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Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_1Ao2cd5BM[/youtube]

http://www.razerzone.com/minisite/hydra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dual 6 degrees of freedom motion controls. Each stick has 7 buttons and an analog control pad. Absolute magnetic positioning, NO DRIFT. Ultra precise: to 1mm and 1 degree. Unfortunately its wired, so it won't work for full freedom VR setups. But, even so, it looks like an awesome peripheral. Has support for 125 games (though most are probably not fully optimized). Comes out in June for $139 w/ a special version of Portal 2. You know I will have one on pre-order.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by Okta »

Wired? WTF were they thinking....cereal?
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

Okta wrote:Wired? WTF were they thinking....cereal?
I think they did that for a few reasons. One big one is latency. Wireless would have introduced a small amount of lag, which may be undesirable. The second is power. If it were fully wireless the controllers would have to be heavier/bigger to support the battery. Third is price. They were aiming for $99. Wireless would have surely increased the cost. Granted, none of these issues is that big a deal, seeing as console makers have done similar wireless motion-controllers. But I can see where they are coming from. I actually only use a wired keyboard and mouse because of quality issues with wireless components. However it would have been really nice to use this in a VR setup.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by tritosine5G »

Yeah its lag, probably you need a big chunk of buffer once you go wireless. First prototypes were wireless afaik?

BTW, I 'd consider this once we have FFB arm pieces and FFB vest that works in most games , but without FFB leave me alone.

http://gizmodo.com/#!359539/force-feedb ... mimic-pain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://tngames.com/pages/Games-and-Drivers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

wow it support borderlands :!:
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

Well any serious virtual reality setup is going to require an assortment of components. Obviously a 3D display, ideally a high-FOV HMD. Then you need motion-controllers, head-trackers, etc. And the Hydra looks like it could fit the bill (provided they come out with a wireless version). And finally some sort of haptics/force-feedback devices. This could be a vest, exo-skeleton, rumble, etc. That TN vest looks decent, a should probably try it. But these are separate components. You can't expect one device to do it all.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

Its available to pre-order (which I already did). Should be out in June sometime:
http://store.razerzone.com/store/razeru ... d.55979400" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by martinh »

Sounds as good as a Fastrak for about 1/40 the price. And the Fastrak is also wired.

Awesome!
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

Its shipped. I should have it next week sometime.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

I got it.

Tried it for about a half-hour, its pretty interesting. I have to download Portal 2, so in the meantime I tried some other supported games. Mainly I tested Left4Dead. The controllers do seem really accurate. I did not notice much jitter or drift or anything like that. It certainly adds another element to the game, and moving the camera around with the controller did feel more immersive. Sort of like holding a gun. The experience reminded me of using head-tracking on an HMD, for better or worse. I say worse because I did get somewhat sick after about 20 minutes. I've had worse, but I'm still a little queasy. Also, I found myself running out of space quickly, and then having to re-center the controller (like picking up a mouse). This was expected, but still annoying. Otherwise this thing has a lot of potential, especially for applications that support it natively. The controllers feel good in your hands, and do look pretty cool. I can't wait to try Portal 2, since that has specific support just for the controller (lots of other games have support also, but it is mostly mouse emulation style). Did an unboxing video, will post tomorrow. Also, I will write a review once I get to test it for a little bit. Really excited to try to develop an app with it.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by bobv5 »

The most important question, to me at least, if you turn 180 from the sensor, would youur charecter also turn 180?
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

bobv5 wrote:The most important question, to me at least, if you turn 180 from the sensor, would youur charecter also turn 180?
Yes, you can do this. You can do the full 360 and keep going. There is no line of sight. However there is a line of sight from your eyes to the monitor. This would have been great for use with HMDs, however the controllers are wired. Its really too bad, because that would have an awesome use for the controller. Its still pretty cool the way it is now, especially if you only plan to use it sitting down watching a monitor. But a free-movement VR setup could have taken this to the next level. And that plug is proprietary, so that kills any dreams of easily converting this to wireless.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

Ok, so I got to play Portal 2 tonight. It really was one of the coolest things I've played in a while. The fact that the game is great helped, but really the awesome controls provided by the Razer Hydra made the experience what it was. The control was silky smooth and I would not want to play the game any other way. Although the aiming was not as precise as a mouse can be, it felt responsive and most importantly fun. Picking up objects resulted in a lot more control, with 6 degrees of freedom. The controller really is as accurate as they say. Totally perfect, no jitter whatsoever. The best I've seen anyway. This really is some next-generation equipment. Although motion-control has been done before (Nintendo Wii, etc.) I don't think it ever worked this nice. Well, some of the gestures still feel a little clunky (jumping can be a little hard to time correctly) but overall it feels very smooth. Aiming and shooting the portal gun kind of feels like you are actually shooting something and not just clicking a button on a mouse. It does bring you into the game even more (keep in mind I was, of course, playing in stereo 3D and wearing the Psyko 5.1 headset). Kinda wish I had tried Portal 2 first, because maybe I got the wrong impression with some other games. I did not experience any discomfort or sickness this time, I will have to see if I can tweak the controls in other games to work like this. I still want to play with it more to put up a more detailed review. But I can say this. The entry cost of $139 with Portal 2 included is worth it just to experience Portal like this. No lie.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by Johnny-Mnemonic »

Great review, thanks!
Does Razer Hydra have some vibration feedback, like in gamepads?
Kinda first thought, that these grips could have feedback.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

Unfortunately there is not any force feedback. Probably because there is not a standard on the PC for providing this. It would have been nice, but its not a deal breaker for me. I like the fact that the controllers are extremely light and not tiring to hold. Adding feedback would have likely added a significant amount of weight to them. So I can understand why they went without it.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMZ7gw-9OrA[/youtube]

I tried something new. Stereoscopic picture-in-picture. Never seen it done before. What do you guys think?
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by Johnny-Mnemonic »

Just checked this video in stereo, looks great, thank you!
Actually picture in picture also looks pretty good.
Stereoscopy helps to capture your hands movements.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by mAchiNE »

This looks great! but I think I will wait for a wireless version to come out so I can use it with a HMD (unless the Novint XIO comes out first). In the meantime I think I will play Portal 2 with the Novint Falcon.

Although it is very cheap (for this kind of device) and it is tempting to get one just to try it :?
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by tritosine5G »

Play Borderlands with falcon, you can turn off the black outlines its excellent+++ 3D .
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

There was a wireless version some developers got, but it seems there were latency issues and who knows how much that would have increased the cost. I do wish they could have found a way to make this work, because then it really would be the ultimate VR controller (ultimate meaning something available and affordable). Even so, its pretty cool. I've started messing around with the SDK a bit, its really easy. When I get a chance I will post a video.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by mAchiNE »

Well I would pay double the going price if it was wireless (even if there was a cable connecting the 2 controllers together but wireless to the base station), it would be A LOT more useful that way. And as for latency issues yes this can be a problem in low end products but I know Razer can do it with low enough latency for it not to be an issue if they want to, they have done it before with the Razer Mamba.
I have the Mamba and I have never noticed any latency issues from the wireless, and with the Mamba you have the option of wired or wireless (you can plug in a usb cable and use it as wired which bypasses the wireless) and I never noticed a difference between when it was connected via wireless or wired.
I think the main issue here was Price point, and possibly getting a wired version to the market could be done a lot quicker than developing the wireless version to a high enough standard for release, and would give them an opportunity to see how much interest there is in the market for this type of product to see if its worth developing the product further, I mean if not may people are prepared to buy the wired version for $139 then they may assume that a more expensive wireless version is a waste of time (so maybe based on that assumption I should buy one! :D ).
Its nice to see a device like this is coming from a big company like Razer who are big enough to support it properly, unlike smaller companys such as TN Games who rely soley on a fringe/niche product for their income and may not survive long term (although in saying that I have the TN Games product and think its great with the games it does work with!).
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

Well I would recommend everyone that is interested to buy the device so that Razer continues to support it. And if it does really well, maybe we can look forward to a wireless version in the future. It really is quite affordable in comparison to what devices like this have cost in the past.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by mAchiNE »

Yeah I have thought about this and I think I will buy one, untill the Novint XIO comes out (if it ever comes out), the Razer Hydra seems to me to be the best VR input device around at the moment (and at a very reasonable price considering it comes with a $50USD game, and has the potential to replace an expensive gaming keyboard and mouse as preffered gaming inputs).

Its a funny thing I have been looking at old pictures of '90s VR setups on various posts and on Tones website, and in most of those a similar device to the Hydra is always used (3D Joystick i think it was called) although the Hydra is miles ahead in accuracy vs those old devices.

@Cyber
How do you find the gaming experience with the Razer Hydra compares to the Novint Falcon in terms of immersiveness?
I know the 2 devices are completely different but both bring their own unique features to the gaming experience, I find with the falcon the thing it has that makes it better than a mouse setup is the haptic force feedback, while this is the major draw to the device for me it comes at a cost of less control, basically due to the way the Falcon controls your aim in games it is more similar to an analogue stick with precise control in the center of the control area and ramping at the edges (i.e. the further you move the device in one direction the faster you turn in game), where (correct me if I am wrong) the Razer Hydra seems to be more like a mouse in terms of control (as in the further you move the device the further you turn in the game not the further you move the device the faster you turn in game, and speed of movement in game is related directly to the speed of movement of the device) just on a vertical plane instead of horizontal like a mouse, and this alone seems like it would add to the gaming experience as your movements in real life mirrior your movements in game more closely than a falcon or a mouse. So basically as I see it (not having used the Hydra) the Falcon has Great Haptic Feed back and the Hydra has Relative 1:1 movement between real life and in game movements. So which is more Immersive in your opinion having used both devices?

Also how do you find the Razer Hydra as a complete mouse/keyboard replacement for gaming in terms of controll and generally having enough buttons to not need a keyboard? I quite like the idea of being able to sit on a couch and play a FPS and still have the same level of control and accuracy as a mouse, not to mention the ergonomics of a hendheld controller are miles ahead of something that sits on a fixed surface!

And finally (lots of questions i know :)) Can it be used as a mouse replacement in windows?
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by mAchiNE »

Also Cyber can you please tell me, do the 2 wired controllers connect to the PC or the base station, is the base station powered by USB or does it need mains power as well?

I ask because I have an idea how to use the Hydra semi wireless for a Freedom VR setup.
I am going to assume for now that the 2 controllers connect to the base station and the base station connects to the PC and also requires mains power (maybe 12V?)
So for this to work you will need 2 Razer Hydra base stations, and assumes that you are going to use a PC/Laptop in a backpack VR setup not a wireless HMD.
What you will need to do is connect one base station to the controllers and to the laptop/PC in your backpack and disable or magnetically sheild the electromagnet in that base station (if we are lucky the mains power connection is soley used to power the magnet and by not connecting it the magnet will not work) if required a battery can be used to power the base station instead of mains power.
The second base station will simply be connected to mains and a usb charger if necessary an positioned within range of your VR setup.
Now the controllers will get their positional data from the magnetic field of the second base station but still feed that data to the PC/laptop in your back pack meaning no cables to get tangled up in as you spin around on the spot. :D

this also means that the controllers remain light weight as well (and as I said I would pay twice the price for a wireless version so for me to buy 2, if this works, would not bother me)
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cadcoke5 »

I have a question of my own. How long can you use the Hydra before your arms get tired? I have always had doubts about the viability of touchscreen and "wave your arm" controls for regular computing tasks for this reason. But, perhaps I am just too much of a couch-potato.

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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

@mAchiNE: Its a little hard to compare the Novint Falcon to the Razer Hydra, they are two different products. First off, the Falcon is only 3DOF (position only), while the Hydra has 6DOF. Granted, mostly games will not take advantage of this, but its nice to have. It makes the controller feel more accurate since it have adjust to any type of movement. However in terms of immersion maybe haptics has an advantage. There is nothing quite like force-feedback. So ideally you would have both.

The Hydra works very much like a mouse. When you move its basically 1:1, and when you get to the end of your range you do something called "racheting", which is like picking up a mouse. This will re-center the Hyrda so you can continue turning. So this is a little different than the Falcon, which starts to turn when you get near the edge. On Portal 2, the Hydra controls are very similar to the Novint Falcon (you turn when you get near the edge) and this actually works better than the other games, which use mouse emulation. However the Hydra is the full package. It replaces both mouse and keyboard. With the Falcon you still need a keyboard. You can also play with the Hydra standing up, which can add to immersion. This could also work in conjunction with an HMD, but unfortunately you cannot turn around due to wiring. I think the Hydra is very comfortable and can be used in the living room, similar to using a Nintendo Wii, for example. To be honest, I still think the mouse-keyboard is going to have better accuracy but the Hydra is not horrible. Its just that, at times, it can be hard to aim. Especially when you have to turn around to see the target. This will likely get easier with time.

Yes, the Hydra can be used within Windows. Again, I am not sure it will be replacing the mouse any time soon, but you can do it and it works.

The base station is powered by USB. That plugs into the PC, the controllers plug into the base (with a proprietary connection). I am not sure how the controllers communicate with the base, so I am not sure if that 2 base station idea will work. It sounds plausible, but who knows? I was thinking it might be possible to convert it to wireless by cutting the proprietary wire and somehow re-wiring it to be wireless. I don't have the skills to do that, but I am sure people out there could do it.

@cadcoke5: I've used the Hydra for maybe like 30-45 minutes at once. When I tried it standing up, I did get tired pretty quick (after 5-10 minutes) but sitting down was not so bad. I had my elbows rested on the arms of the chair. In this case I did not get very tired. However it is more intensive then the mouse and keyboard, so you will likely want to take a break every hour just to be safe.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by mAchiNE »

do you know if this interferes with head trackers?
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

mAchiNE wrote:do you know if this interferes with head trackers?
There is a good chance it does. Guess I will find out when I get my 1200VR.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by mAchiNE »

Re: virtual reality controller for mouse movement
The Hydra really does sound pretty promising. Can someone who already has one tell me if they think if it would be possible to mount one upside down, using hooks to suspend the cables, so you could use it freestanding and turn 360 degrees without the wire getting all tangled etc?

Also, I don't suppose anyone know if its possible to use 2 Hydras at the same time? I was thinking it wouldn't be, due to two magnetic emitters confusing the system (unless you can use the limited range of it to your advantage somehow), but then thought that it might be be possible to use the extra sensors from a 2nd Hydra (ignoring the 2nd Hydra's base station), to double the number of sensors to 4.
Cyber can probably answe this best ATM.

a bit further up on this page I describe a way that might be able to use it wireless(ish) with 2 sets although no one has tried it yet, I will be getting some of these in the next month and I will try and see if it works, also you probably could mount the basestation upside down you will still get tangled/twisted up as the controller connect to the basestation, I suppose mounting it upside down might get you a few extra turns before you get too tangled but it will still happen.
If you can disable the basestations magnet then you might be able to use 2 sets off one basestation

From the FAQ on the Razer Hydra webpage:
Q: Will objects that emit their own magnetic fields affect the performance of the Razer Hydra?
A: Objects that emit their own magnetic fields, such as some CRT televisions, might have the potential to cause interference between the controllers and the base station. Also, using two Hydra base units side by side will have an effect on performance.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

The SDK supports using multiple base stations, for example doing a two player multiplayer game on one computer. But I think the controllers are locked to their base-station so (aside from interference) the controllers should only work with the station they are attached to.

In terms of mounting the station upside-down, I have no idea if that would work. I'm guessing no (or if it did work all the position tracking would be reversed). I still think the most realistic thing is to just reverse engineer the proprietary wire that connects the controllers to the base station, and then make it wireless using bluetooth, zigbee, etc. I'm just not sure I could do that myself, but I can't imagine it would be that hard.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

Here is a demo I put together using the Sixense SDK:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJHxbDa_tAA[/youtube]

Notice that the tracking is smooth and not jittery like some others.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by 3dvison »

Hey Cyber, do you think this would be a good match with the Wrap1200vr ?
The new Deus ex 3 will be out very soon and I was thinking the Wrap1200vr with a cool controller would be alot of fun with this game.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

I'm a bit afraid that the headtracker on the 1200VR may get interference from the Hydra. Hopefully they will work together, but maybe the 1200VR headtracker will need to be disabled for it to work. I guess its not a huge loss, since most games don't support the headtracker anyway.
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by WiredEarp »

Thanks for the link to this thread Machine.

Its encouraged me to buy a Hydra, especially since a store here in NZ has them in stock now, so I shouldn't have to wait for it to arrive. Quite excited to see just what I can do with it, I've been wanting a magnetic tracker for ages, but its been hard to justify paying $1000+ for one.

I intend to try to do what I've done with my Emagin Z800, and run the cable overhead, so I can turn around at least a few times without problems. Also, i'm really hoping to make one part of it into a decent headtracker for the Z800... so I can use one of the controllers to aim/move, and the other to turn without all the annoying drift of the Z800's tracker.

I'm also getting into FPV at the moment (flying model planes etc with cameras onboard, feeding back into your VR glasses/telepresence stuff) so I'll be looking to see if I can use it as a headtracker for this purpose as well. Currently, the best head tracker for FPV i'm aware of, uses magnetic calibration to recalibrate and avoid drift, but you need to align to north or south before you can use it correctly. I'll let everyone know how I get on once I've received it...
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cybereality
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

Awesome dude. Let me know what you think.
mAchiNE
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by mAchiNE »

WiredEarp Good to hear another New Zealander is into this stuff! I thought I was the only one ;)
Are you based in Auckland?

I was going to buy one of these off the Razer store but they do not ship to NZ, I also saw that a few shops have just got these in stock here now so I have ordered one off Computer Lounge and I will be picking it up on tuesday. :D
Current System:
Oculus Rift Dev Kit, 3x 23" Passive 3D Monitors in 3D Vision Surround, Novint Falcon, 3rd Space Gaming Vest, ButtKicker, Razer Hydra, Logitech G25.
Previous 3D Systems:
Viewsonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector, Vuzix VR920, 24" Alienware and 22" Samsung 3D Vision Monitors, eDimensional 3D Glasses with 19" CRT Monitor
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cybereality
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

@mAchiNE: Sweet.
3dvison
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by 3dvison »

Hey cybereality,
If the Hydra does have problemes with the Wrap1200 tracker, what other controller do you think would work well as a mouse/keyboard replacment while using the Wrap1200vr and its headtracker ?
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cybereality
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by cybereality »

3dvison wrote:Hey cybereality,
If the Hydra does have problemes with the Wrap1200 tracker, what other controller do you think would work well as a mouse/keyboard replacment while using the Wrap1200vr and its headtracker ?
Honestly, I'm not sure. It would be cool to have something that was wireless and could be used for a full-freedom setup.
mAchiNE
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Re: Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

Post by mAchiNE »

Wii motion plus with nunchuck would be the only fully wireless option at the moment, no where near as accurate as the Hydra though, but other people have used it for various VR type setups before.
Current System:
Oculus Rift Dev Kit, 3x 23" Passive 3D Monitors in 3D Vision Surround, Novint Falcon, 3rd Space Gaming Vest, ButtKicker, Razer Hydra, Logitech G25.
Previous 3D Systems:
Viewsonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector, Vuzix VR920, 24" Alienware and 22" Samsung 3D Vision Monitors, eDimensional 3D Glasses with 19" CRT Monitor
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