HMZ-T1 vs ST1080 vs Cinemizer OLED

[fireslayer26]

I created this thread the compare the 3 newest consumer HMD's coming to the market. If you have more confirmed information, please list it below.

HMZ-T1

Aspect Ratio : 16:09
Display Device : OLED Panel x 2
Display Resolution : 1280x720
Field of View : 45 degree
Gradation : RGB 24bit
Virtual Image Size : 750 inches at 65 feet distance (effectively 150" at 12 feet)
HDMI Input(s) and Output(s) : 1 input(HDMI 1.4a)/1 through-output(HDMI 1.4a)
HMD Output(s) : 1 output
Headphones
Driver Unit : Open air dinamic
Frequency Response : 12-24,000Hz
Impedance : 24?
Maximum Input : 1,000mW (IEC)
Sensitivity : 106dB/mW

Price $799

ST1080

2D and 3D-ready
10% see-through HMD type
45 degrees diagonal field of view
100 inches at 10 feet (at 3 m) virtual image
240 fps sequential color (80 fps per color)
100:1 system contrast ratio
30 bit RGB color depth (24 bit RGB input)
24 bit stereo audio
720p @ 60Hz Frame Packing 3D Format
1080p @ 24Hz Frame Packing 3D Format
IPD Adjustment: 60mm to 70mm
Resolution: 1920 x 1080
Aspect Ratio: 16:9
Display Type: 0.74 inch LCoS
Pixel Pitch: 8.5 um
Brightness: 120 cd/m2 (nits)
Contrast: 1200:1 at f/2.8 (LCoS panel)
7 Watts
Micro USB power port
5 hour external mobile battery pack
HDMI Type A input
3.5mm stereo audio input
HMD output

Pre-order price $699

Cinemizer OLED

FOV- unk
Screen size 45" at 6'
Resolution 720P
Aspect ration- 16:9
Weight- unk
Inputs- Universal video in, detachable connectors (iPod, VGA, HDMI)
Price- around $500
8 hour battery life
Diopter adjustment
Multiple inputs

[Aeroflux]

HMZ-T1 FOV is 51 diagonal; 45 Horizontal

Battery life on the ST1080 is 4 Hours

ST1080 has a 3.5mm audio input

[fireslayer26]

Ok, I added the new info for the ST1080. Where did you get 4 hours for the battery pack. I got the 5 hours straight from their website. http://www.siliconmicrodisplay.com/st1080-features.html

[Aeroflux]

Wow...then that is an inconsistency. Their PDF specification lists "4 hour mobile battery pack" under the Power section.

[cybereality]

I am adding the Vuzix 1200VR, because it is a real product you can buy right now.

1200VR

FOV 35 degrees diag
Screen size 75" at 10'
Resolution 854x480
Aspect Ratio 16:9
Weight 3.0 ounces
Input: VGA (SBS 3D)
6DoF Headtracker
Diopter/IPD Adjustment
USB Powered
Price $600

[ShawmK]

The aspect ratio for the Cinemizer is going to be 16:9.

I am adding the Vuzix 1200VR, because it is a real product you can buy right now.

I agree; the Vuzix deserves inclusion. It may not be HD, but unlike the Cinemizer and the ST1080, it actually exists .

[fireslayer26]

Thanks, I updated the OP.

[ancjob]

well - inclusion of wrap1200vr is not ok in my opinion ....as it's the worst !....the screen resolution is a deal breaker[852x480]...all hmds except wrap1200vr have HD [> hd] screens whether existing or hypothetical....and they take HDMI [vuzix will take 10yr to get that input method in their HMDs]

if we include wrap1200vr than we 'd include all 'china generic' hmds like evg920s since they also exist!....


comparing wrap1200vr to likes of cinemizer/sony etc is like comparing poop with the chocolates!

and st1080 as 1080p HMD accepting HDMI - usb powered....that's like very close to dream HMD...'see-through with 10% transparency' is a deal breaker!



i ask to myself - is there no HMD with such optics as z800 [usb powered , light weight with at least 720p panels] even sony failed to make an equivalent of z800 with 720p panels... ?
...

[fireslayer26]

*Updated OP*

[Synexious]

For once, I agree with ancjob. Neither the Vuzix nor the Cinemizer should be included, since they're both sub-HD (if the Cinemizer was HD, it would've been announced as such). The ST1080 with a FOV mod would be best. If the HMZ's FOV can be upgraded, so can the ST1080's.

[fireslayer26]

Ok, I removed the Vuzix as the resolution is too low to compete, but I will leave the Cinemizers up until the official specs come out.

[Synexious]

This FPV enthusiast has a Cinemizer OLED prototype, so he should know the resolution.

[STRZ]

This guy said it's 720p ( p.2 in comments ) he had the Prototype.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fHiX4QU0bA

The FPV enthusiast said the source image was standard def, so it's most probably the source not the device. The only concern i have is that it comes with a FOV below 40°, that would really put me off. I would only use it for 3d gaming, ST1080 would cost me double the price of cinemizer oled importing it to germany.

I could not justify that if it is only 5° difference in FOV, having no oled and can only do 3d 720p @ 60hz as well. Lcos don't come close to oled. Look at the smartphone market, people buy samsung plastic rubbish phones only because picture quality rocks due to oled.

Another bonus of the cinemizer is build in highend ( compared to track ir ) 360° headtracking. That's officially confirmed ( see my post in the other subforum cinemizer thread ). Small device, oled, excellent optics ( Zeiss main business ), with a FOV of 40 ( + ) and a price around 500/600€ a nobrainer.

[WiredEarp]

people buy samsung plastic rubbish phones only because picture quality rocks due to oled.

Dude, people buy Samsung phones because they have the best feature set out there, including the OLED screens. They have a lot more going for them than just a good screen tech. Besides, plastic > glass when it comes to drop resistance.

[STRZ]

Dude, people buy Samsung phones because they have the best feature set out there, including the OLED screens. They have a lot more going for them than just a good screen tech. Besides, plastic > glass when it comes to drop resistance.

Just compare Samsung plastic build quality to Motorola or HTC build quality/haptics. Samsung has often the best specs and newest tech in a price category, but build quality doesn't match, very far from beeing rock solid. Designed to fail, period.

Features, don't know what you mean, all phones running basically the same OS. Lots of people even flash their phone with custom roms like cyanogen.

In the last 5 years i've owned enough Samsung products to judge over their build quality, two harddisks failed, a n510 netbook failed where the hinges wich hold the screen broke, a Samsung TV failed, a friends samsung phone failed, i avoid them where i can, they are on my blacklist now. They just have bad quality control.

Sorry for OT but perhaps you understand now why i said what i said, if you own Samsung stuff then sorry, don't take it personal

[STRZ]

Allright, now it's clear why they delayed the cinemizer, they have reworked the prototype and shrinked resolution to 870x500..

http://www.videoaktiv.de/201202247047/N ... logie.html
http://www.colorfoto.de/news/carl-zeiss ... 54285.html

The authors of the article say that the resolution a official confirmation from Zeiss. Zeiss argues that it's below HD, but it wouldn't make a difference for the viewer.

Of course if they come with a small FOV viewing the picture further away, then it doesn't make a huge difference....

[Synexious]

Stupid Zeiss. I was 99% sure the Cinemizer wouldn't be HD, since it would be totally crazy to not tout it, if it actually was. And I knew the FOV would be 35 degrees, which is why I'd already discounted it, regardless of resolution. 720p is the absolute minimum acceptable resolution for me, and I prefer 1080p. Hopefully we can now all agree - there are only two serious options; the HMZ-T1 and the ST1080. The ST1080 is probably better overall, because of comfort, portability, resolution, and brightness, but the HMZ has an extra six degrees of FOV, and OLED. But as Palmer, who's tried both, said, there's just not a lot of light going through the HMZ's OLEDs, so the ST1080 may be preferable, even though LCoS doesn't look as good as OLED, since the ST1080 is significantly brighter. As soon as I heard about the ST1080, I knew I'd buy one, and I'll preorder on March 1. The question is whether I should sell my HMZ. I probably will. I haven't used it much, despite my initial excitement with it. I bought the Blazin' 3D straps, but the HMZ is still uncomfortable for me, as well as a pain to put on (I have long hair, which catches on the plastic straps, and the soft covers make it even more difficult). The ST1080 will come on and off in a snap.

[brantlew]

I wouldn't mind getting the $100 pre-order discount on the ST1080, but I'm still a little nervous about the unknowns - specifically the supported formats. I guess I could always resale if I was dissatisfied but I don't know if the $100 bucks is worth the hassle. Still unsure whether to roll-the-dice with a pre-order or take a more cautious approach.

[Synexious]

Which formats? Surely it supports everything the HMZ does?

[STRZ]

I wonder if its possible to use the Zeiss headtracker seperately from the device, they mention that they will sell the headtracker for 100€ seperately..

The device itself, the cinemizer is targeted at FPV folks, they even show it off as such in combination ith a Parrot drone on the CEBIT fair. First i wanted to go there to compare with the HMZ, but now knowing that it's below HD its no option at all for me. 870x500, such a stupid choice of resolution. If they say that it's enough than only because the FOV is 35 or lower. Asking 600€ for it ( without headtracker ) is ridicoulous, in german FPV forums folks are already complainng about the price, the average user there don't want to pay more than for a Fatshark

[cybereality]

@STRZ: I don't think they "shrunk" the resolution. It was just never HD to begin with. Not sure how that rumor got started, but it was suspect from the beginning.

@Synexious: The HMZ supports framepacking *and* side-by-side, but the ST may only support frame-packing.

Really that resolution is too low. I won't even bother with that. Not when there are HD options on the market. Now if the other features were amazing, maybe that would change it. But I don't think they are. Probably the only thing that seems interesting is that it has an optional headtracker (which the HMZ and ST don't) so at least it could be used to VR stuff without a lot of make-shift modifications.

[STRZ]

@STRZ: I don't think they "shrunk" the resolution. It was just never HD to begin with. Not sure how that rumor got started, but it was suspect from the beginning.

Well, the youtube racing guy confirmed that the prototype was 720p, he must know it because he had to set up the device in the screen manager of his graphics card

I think they decided to switch to lower resolution screens after they found out that the market they expect most sales from ( FPV ) don't need HD because the bandwith for wireless HD streaming would be too high for FPV. "If they don't need it and only want to pay amounts compared to Fatshark & co. we shrink it to be competitive in that market", logical isn't it?

A logical decision but compared to the amount they could sell to cineasts, gamers etc. pure stupidity. FPV is a niche hobby.

Just because more FPV freaks participated the poll doesn't mean that you can't reach the PC geek market or cineasts with some advertising. 500p means no gamer or cineast will think about buing it. Maybe a 60yr old who still uses a 15" CRT and owns Zeiss glasses as well and lives near Zeiss headquarters in eastern germany...

[PalmerTech]

Well, the youtube racing guy confirmed that the prototype was 720p, he must know it because he had to set up the device in the screen manager of his graphics card

Maybe not. Remember, the Vuzix VR1200 defaults to 720p input, and it is hard to give it a native resolution WVGA input. Entirely possible that the prototype Cinemizer OLED was doing the same thing.

It might not be perfect, but if the VR1200 manages to have a niche in this price range, I am sure the Cinemizer will, too. Higher res, better displays, almost certainly better optics and diopter adjustment, etc.

[ShawmK]

I agree; it's quite likely that this was always the resolution. If it had been 720 (or more) when the prototype was unveiled a year and a half ago, they would probably have made that a major talking-point. Instead, they have been ducking every question put to them about the resolution.

I'm still curious to see the final product. Everyone who had tried the prototype has had nothing but praise for it, and the previous model (the Cinemizer Plus) was very well designed and comfortable, with good lenses.

This is certainly shaping up to be an interesting year for Head-Mounted Displays!

[GSG9LIGHTNING]

870 x 500 Pixels resolution and only 35 degrees FOV sounds dissapointing ... but i definatly will have a look on the Cinemizer OLED at CEBIT exhibition first.

Too bad that Silicon Micro Displays dont have an exhibition booth at CEBIT this year. That would have been perfect to be able to compare both HMD´s.
The personal impression of a product is very important after all and who knows, the quality of the image might be a positive suprise too.
The good thing is the 360 Degree Headtracker from Visenso fits perfectly on top of the Cinemizer and hopefully will work without any noticeable lag or jitter/drifting.

Still enough time after CEBIT to place an order at Silicon Micro Displays.
But we dont know yet if the ST1080 will be available in germany for the reduced introduction price of 699$ = approximately 523 Euros.
In addition we have to pay 19% import taxes + a few Euros Customs office fees in Germany = approximately 110 Euros
= approximately 633 Euros !!!

That is almost the same price as the Cinemizer OLED will cost.
( We dont even know yet, if the Visenso Headtracker will cost some extra Money or if it is included in the price of 600 Euros )

Patience we must have !

[STRZ]

The Headtracker is not from Visenso, it's made by HSG-IMIT http://www.hsg-imit.de/

It will cost extra, about 100€.

[GSG9LIGHTNING]

The Headtracker is not from Visenso, it's made by HSG-IMIT http://www.hsg-imit.de/

It will cost extra, about 100€.

??? The Website of Visenso says something different : http://www.visenso.de/leistungen/bundles/cinemizer.html
I know it´s the older Cinemizer Model, but i thought that they also deliver the latest generation Headtracker for the Cinemizer OLED.

Confused now.... where did you got your info from ?
Because i cannot find the Headtracker that we are talking about on that Website you linked.

[STRZ]

I got the information from here, last post http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... &start=165

http://www.retter.tv/de/feuerwehr.html? ... gnis=10917

But you're right, they ( visenso and HSG ) developed the headtracker together. It wasn't clear at the times i postet the link but now it makes sense, because Visenso organized the event. When they said that they developed the headtracker together i was sure they meant HSG and Zeiss. Damn, haven't paid attention to the credits mentioning Visenso, wich leads to the conclusion that the text itself is from Visenso

[WiredEarp]

Is it just another 9DOF gyro type sensor?

[cybereality]

All the videos I've seen of the Cinemizer OLED tracker look top notch. At least as good as the one on the Vuzix.

[greenlantern]

Roumors are, that the Headtracker actually was developed by inreal Technologies,
but I guess I'll have to wait till tuesday on the CeBIT to get first hand info...

[STRZ]

http://www.engadget.com/2012/03/06/zeis ... -hands-on/

[cybereality]

The engadget video makes the headset appealing... if you forget the resolution and FOV.

At least they are showing a real interest in VR, but the spec and price just aren't there.

€650 + €100 for the tracker!!! That's almost a thousand US dollars!! What are they smoking!?!??!

[STRZ]

The tracker seems to be interesting, i read somewhere else that its connected over USB and uses mouse movement. As its a very small and probably lightweight clipon device, and is sold seperately for around 100€ "only" maybe a real alternative pairing it with a HMZ.

2 years ago the Zeiss would have been a great device, but know offering that resolution and 30° FOV for 650€ is ignoring what the others are doing. The picture quality is maybe very good, but it's not even an upgrade in immersion for the 37" TV at the end of my bed in the dormitory. In my opinion a FOV over 40° is the minimal requirement for immersion.

For business travellers who often sit hours in trains and aeroplanes, or richkids on their car backseats it's mabe a nice to have accessoire for watching movies. And for the highend FPV folks maybe as replacement for Fatshark & co.

For multi hobby people like me who would use it mainly stationary, who have to spend their hobby budget wisely there is no budget left for mispurchasing.

If my hobby budget would be only dedicated to VR i would buy them all tbh

[ShawmK]

I'm still finding the "30 degree FOV" figure hard to believe.

The older model (the Cinemizer Plus) had an FOV of 32 degrees - same as the Vuzix 920. It's incredible that their new model would be a step down from the old one.

When you consider that the OLED display is 16:9, and the older model was 4:3, that means that the 30 degree display is going to be a lot smaller. Something strange is going on here.

[WiredEarp]

The only think I can think of that comes close to explaining this, is that they are going for the high end FPV market exclusively. That would explain the resolution of the screens (FPV cameras can't really use more), the form factor, the head tracker, and the fact that includes AV in. Actually, thinking about it, since a set of FPV AIO goggles go for about $450-500, these arn't THAT much of a stretch more for those who want top gear to pay for. And when you have a $2000 FPV setup, a few hundred dollars extra for the top FPV goggles isn't a massive stretch.

The FOV on one of the most recent Fatshark FPV goggles was really low as well, 32 degrees I think. So maybe they think that FPV people want that. There is a debate amongst RC folks as to whether high FOV (immersion) or high resolution (clarity) is more important.

If they were going for FPV folks however, i question why they haven't included a RC compatible output on the headtracker out of the box.

[ShawmK]

That makes sense, except for the HDMI 3D input.
They've added frame-packing 3D through HDMI, which is presumably intended for Blu Ray and Game use, so they can't be thinking exclusively of the FPV market.
That's another point I noticed, by the way: they make no mention of side-by-side or over-under 3D, which would severely limit its use as a 3D viewer (the ST1080 has the same drawback). The old Cinemizer had side-by-side 3D.

[brantlew]

What does FPV stand for again?

[fireslayer26]

FPV= First Person View. We mount cameras and video transmitters to our R/C planes or helicopters or cars and transmit the video back to a base station that we have our video glasses hooked up to. So when we are flying for driving, its like your actually sitting in the pilots seat. Check out: http://www.rcgroups.com/video-piloting-fpv-rpv-469/

[STRZ]

What i think is that they had 2 Models, one as it's now and another with 720p and the inbuild headtracker in the front. They could have launched it already but waited the poll before massproduction.

Result of the poll was probably that most people where FPV people who participated, beeing the group of people wich is mostly interested in this sort of devices. But that's because most people who COULD be interested in those devices do not even know that they exist and what you can do with them, a dilemma really. I see Zeiss as a very serious conservative acting company, usually OEM/ODM. They run no risks, don't spend much in propaganda as their approach is usually different.

Somehow the VR community needs to convince the hardcore gamers. For example, if somebody whith a HMD gets known due to success in an online game, many people would want to know the "material" he's using, and if it's immersive and demonstrated as useful it would make it's breakthrough from there into console market.

See it as a chain of opinion, once you convince the core people of a scene there is no limit anymore. That's he true reason why for example Apple is successfull, their image is that it is PRO hardware, because it was targeted mainly to Professional content creators who later are giving buing advice to semi pro's and so on.

In Homecinema FOV is limited to your focus view, greater than 45° would not make sense. So not ideal for our aspiration what we want VR to be if we want more massproduced devices with high FOV +45°. Gaming is where it's at