PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by brantlew »

I'm jealous Cyber. Curious to hear more of your gaming reports. Is it impossible to use as a desktop?

Seems like you could easily use your Vuzix mouse emulator without any hassle. Just set the PR2 as the desktop and the Vuzix as a second screen just to power the tracker. Then tape the glasses on top of the helmet and you've got a quick and dirty solution.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Fredz »

Maybe you could have a look at http://widescreengamingforum.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for your aspect ratio problem, I don't know if it'll apply but there are a lot of discussions about anamorphic rendering in games there. Also Nthusim may be an option too. Can't wait to see the review... :)
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by brantlew »

The helmet looks great Palmer. Haven't seen that yet - just your handheld version. What is it? Looks super comfy - can you confirm Cyber?
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by WiredEarp »

That looks awesome. PalmerTech, what is the head mount made from?

Cyber, whats it like playing Left4Dead? ;-)
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by PalmerTech »

The horizontal FOV can definitely be wider, right now it is somewhere around 110 degrees. One of my (many) current projects is making a tiled HMD, my bench unit pushes past 270 degree horizontal FOV, makes it impossible to see the edges of the screen, even when turning your eyes all the way to the edges! The resolution is pretty bad in the periphery, but that is fine. Our real peripheral vision is crap, too! :D I won't have a prototype till the end of February, most likely.

The panel is actually 1280x800, but 800X600 can give better results for consumer games in SBS mode. Another tip, Cyber: I usually put a foam light blocker around the lenses, but I did not have enough spare foam lying around. Trying playing in the dark, or perhaps taping strips of black paper to the sides of the main unit.

The head mount comes from a Visionics LVES. However, the LVES mount is made by taking two of those dental headgear bands, cutting off the bands from one of them, and riveting them to the other. Easy and relatively cheap to duplicate! I have another mount design that I am working with, but it is currently being used with the wireless PR4 prototype.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Bishop51 »

Absolutely jealous!

Really proud of you Palmer both for getting this through to a very workable prototype and for sending one off to the most deserving VR enthusiast here.

I cannot wait to get my hands on one of these. We'll all be well ahead of the painfully slow consumer market curve with a Palmer on our heads! Anything I can do to help please let me know.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by fireslayer26 »

Awesome work Palmer! Very excited about your work. Looking forward to future incarnations! (already saving my money to buy a PalmerVR helmet! LOL)
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by bobv5 »

Saw this. Looks pretty awesome.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Visionics-LVES- ... 0365360973" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Bishop51 »

I was thinking again on how I might help and started thinking in terms of branding (can't help it, product design, marketing and packaging is what I do all day). So to that end, I spent a bit of time this afternoon building a front plate logo for your PR4 :) If you want to use it feel free to get in touch and I'll get you a direct download to the high res version. I thought you could print a few off and stick it to the faceplate of your demo rigs for a nice finishing touch :)

Oh and no worries if you don't like it or don't want to use it Palmer, I've got a pretty thick skin ;) It was fun to do during my break and maybe it will help keep you inspired as you move forward :)

Click to embiggen!
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by pierreye »

If Palmer can come out with better optics, comfortable head mount and higher FOV for HMZ-T1, I'll be the first in the queue.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by STRZ »

I need this HMD for simracing :D
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by cybereality »

Here is a 3D video of the PR4 HMD:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhAmh7FT-S0[/youtube]

Its hard to tell in the video, but the FOV is massive. Easily over 90 degrees, but I am not sure exactly how big. Really a great kit.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Synexious »

How much does Palmer think these will cost?
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Bishop51 »

drooool...Stop torturing us poor VR-less fools!
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Johnny-Mnemonic »

OMG, this is awesome. Is there any chance to make few of these for forum members?
How much it will possibly cost?
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by TigerClaw »

if it will be less than 1k usd count me in!
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by InvaderZIM »

Just amazing, thanks for the video Cyber, also would have to say the prototype couldn't go to a better deserving member. :D

Keep it up Palmer, your gear has such immersion, and had to believe but your gear is only going to get better as the technology improves. It's just really great to see an idea come to fruition.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by fireslayer26 »

Price it right and you know all the forum members here will buy it! Except maybe Ancjob..... lol
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by brantlew »

I don't care what Sony, Vuzix, or whomever has in store for 2012. These are the only HMD's that I am saving my money for. Cyber, I think you are ruined now. You'll never be able to wear another headset without comparison to these.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by WiredEarp »

I love the look of those big lenses.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by adventurer »

Hopefully major HMD producers can learn something from this PR4 to create our dream consumer level HMD with high resolution, great FOV. This future is not that far...
Last edited by adventurer on Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Bishop51 »

brantlew wrote:I don't care what Sony, Vuzix, or whomever has in store for 2012. These are the only HMD's that I am saving my money for. Cyber, I think you are ruined now. You'll never be able to wear another headset without comparison to these.
What he said X2! Nothing will get us closer to true VR in the short term than the unit I'm seeing here. The consumer market will continue to make snails pace improvements while they acclimate a stunted public to what VR is and should be. I'm not really willing to wait another 10 years, I'm getting old dammit!

Palmer: Have you considered feeding this project through Kickstarter? It would give all of us here a means to fund and support your effort while giving you the capital to buy parts for a limited batch of units. We get what we want, you get what you need and you get exposure to a larger potential market. If you need help starting a Kickstarter campaign I'd love to help out.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by cybereality »

Well the headset, while great, wasn't perfect.

The biggest issue was that it needed a special format of side-by-side that is not provided by any current driver. See the unit uses one display and each eye shares the screen. So you need SBS at half-width but not squished. The only way to do this right now is with custom software. So while IZ3D worked fine for testing, the aspect ratio was off.

The other issue was ergonomics. The thing is a helmet practically, and can be bulky. The optics are also fixed, so no IPD or diopter. Needed to use my contact lenses to use this. I did try with my glasses, but there wasn't much space so it was uncomfortable.

In terms of resolution: it was good, but at the huge FOV you would start to see the pixels. So something like the Sony HMZ-T1 appears higher resolution due to the pixel density. I also found the colors to be a little dull, better than Vuzix probably but not as good as the Sony OLED.

Another annoyance was that the screens were not totally segmented from each other, so you could see the edge of one bleed into the other if you looked for it. This could probably be fixed but putting a barrier or something in between them.

But overall this thing was great for a DIY effort.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Hornet »

Hi all,
I have one idea, would be not possible to use tablet as display for such VR googles? Have tested my new Galaxy tab 7500 yes it is little bigger.....but it would be not big problem to transfer the picture from PC to it with this software :
http://www.talkandroid.com/31426-turn-y ... -idisplay/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is only idea, but the displays are really nice, and ev. Side to dide mode would be not problem - the picture is only clone of picture on PC screen, I know the qality of picture would be not so ideal, but for testing....I have to search some strong + lenses...it is too similar software for streaming of desktop to tablet on android marked.
And such display is with battery...etc, all nice together with wifi or USB acces...
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by yuriythebest »

Image
honestly, if you can get a version that could be used in conjunction with 3d drivers(iz3d,ddd)/software(sview,stereoscopic player) properly + head tracking if possible, then wow I'd start saving.
Also cyber I haven't really used HMD's, but 1024x768x2 doesn't seem like much- will the experience still be worth it when compared with, say, a 23' passive display?
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by InvaderZIM »

Good honest review of the PR4 system Cyber, this will help Palmer improve his design.

I can see where the comfort of the headset is going to probably be one of the biggest challenges, but there's a lot of solutions that I think Palmer is aware of.

I would like to have a higher resoultion as well, when I play Skyrim and A-10 on a single display monitor I like at least 1600x1200 resolution, but with Anti aliasing and such I think having a display with 1280x960 which is presented to each eye would be nice for gaming for the PR4.

As far as the bleed over of the image, you might be onto something Cyber. Would it be possible to put a little non reflective matt black plastic barrier at the center of the display screen inside the viewer to help keep each eye focused on it's section of the panel? I can see where this might limit apparent FOV though.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Bishop51 »

You could easily template something out of black matte board or foamcore for the divider.

I gotta agree on the display front though that Palmer should really look into 7" tablets to bump up the resolution or PPI. That and of course figure out a way to make this play nice with the most popular display drivers from Nvidia and ATI. The whole ball-o-wax really lives or dies based on whether or not people can game with it (or at least those of us here who want entertainment based HMD's and not research HMD's).

The comfort/form-factor issues can be mitigated with more versioning. I would love to take a crack at creating a visually pleasing housing for the unit :)
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by brantlew »

cybereality wrote:Well the headset, while great, wasn't perfect.

The biggest issue was that it needed a special format of side-by-side that is not provided by any current driver. See the unit uses one display and each eye shares the screen.
Is this just for stereoscopic viewing or for 2D mode as well?
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Okta »

brantlew wrote:
cybereality wrote:Well the headset, while great, wasn't perfect.

The biggest issue was that it needed a special format of side-by-side that is not provided by any current driver. See the unit uses one display and each eye shares the screen.
Is this just for stereoscopic viewing or for 2D mode as well?
It doesn't have a 2d mode. To look at the desktop you would need to close your right eye to look at the left side of the screen and vice versa.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by cybereality »

Yep, I forgot to mention THERE IS NO 2D MODE! Its hardware wired for SBS.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by brantlew »

Just for some clarification - so the hardware always optically sends the left half of the display to the left eye and the right half to the right eye. And there is no mechanism to automatically duplicate a 2D video feed to left and right sides of the screen - thus no 2D mode right?
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Okta »

Correct. Life aint meant to be easy :)
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Bishop51 »

Its this kind of issue that always leads me back to the potential wisdom of incorporating active shutter tech pre-lens. Active shutter layer, Leap optics layer, wide format display interleaved. That would make this whole system play nice with 2D and popular 3D formats, it would bump up resolution and it would eliminate the horizontal "squishing".

I mean, I know that goes against a certain VR snobbery but shutter based ghosting is really very minor these days and I think it would be worth it for all of the positives. I think "ghosting" is being overplayed by a lot of manufacturers looking to one-up the competition. Its there but its subtle and by no means a deal killer.

Hell, depending on how the test unit is hardwired Cyber, you could easily experiment with a pair of Nvidia 3D Vision glasses mounted in front of the leap optics (if the display has the right refresh that is). I can't think of a better way to make an affordable HMD truly wide FOV, with an acceptable resolution.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by brantlew »

@Bishop51: You have a good point about utilizing the full resolution per eye, but as far as just making it compatible with 2D and 3D formats - it seems like it just needs a custom device driver.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by WiredEarp »

@ Bishop51: Doesn't the Headplay HMD work in this manner? Shutter layer etc?

One problem with this idea is that it would probably require the LCD to run @ 120hz...
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by Okta »

WiredEarp wrote:@ Bishop51: Doesn't the Headplay HMD work in this manner? Shutter layer etc?

One problem with this idea is that it would probably require the LCD to run @ 120hz...
Bingo. Good luck finding a small lcd that will work at shutter speeds. I have asked Cyber if he can test his parallax barrier at close ranges with a Fresnel lens. That would be a decent option for a small single lcd.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by cybereality »

Yeah, it would be too difficult (or nearly impossible) to source 120Hz panels at that size. You'd more likely be able to do auto-stereo, though it may be difficult at such short distance. My idea for an HMD was to use dual pico-projectors and polarized lenses. That way each eye can get its own screen and you can adjust and overlap the views as much as you want (physically) which would solve a lot of the issues of using either 1 screen or 2 separate LCDs.
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by WiredEarp »

Nice idea with the polarized lenses CyberReality. Thats really a good idea...
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by PalmerTech »

Man, lots of stuff to reply to here. This is what I get for neglecting the internet for a couple weeks. :lol: Here goes, hopefully I do not miss anything:

@Bishop51: Those logos look great! I am especially partial to the two on the right, the clean and simple contrast looks great. Consumers might be more attracted towards the shininess of the one on the left, though. :P If you have a copy as a vector, that would be great, I could use my laser cutter to burn it right onto the surface of the HMD! The PR4 is only my current prototype, though, I have been giving each significant revision of my HMD designs a new marker, with the next one being the PR5. If I ever get my design to the point where I am selling a consumer product, I will probably not use the PR (ProtoType) designation. Maybe call it the VR1? As far as Kickstarter, yes, I have considered it. In fact, more than that, I already got my project approved! ;) I have not made it public yet, though, since I want to wait till I have something that I am sure will blow the minds of people who are not VR nerds like us. The last thing the VR/HMD market needs right now is another company promising a revolution, and delivering anything less.

@STRZ: Sim racing is actually one of the better uses at the moment. Racing does not require the fine detail that is needed for competitive FPS games, or reading the instruments in many flight simulators. iRacing with head tracking is amazing!

@Aphradonis: I am not sure how much it will cost yet. Depending on the features included, the bill of materials on its own for a run of 20 units would be somewhere between $400 and $800, so that would be the bare minimum. Still have to factor in labor, shipping, advertising, and maybe a little bit of profit on top to compensate for the R&D. ;) All the specs will be freely available, though, so if a hobbyist would rather build it themselves, there is nothing stopping them!

@Johnny-Mnemonic: I do plan on making a few for forum members here, not sure how many yet. Another idea I have considered is making one or two units to put on eBay, to get an idea of what people think they are worth.

@Hornet: You could use an Android tablet to make an HMD, but it is not the best idea right now unless you plan on using content that is rendered right on the tablet. Streaming your display to the tablet has too much delay to use, head tracking will make you sick very quickly.

@InvaderZIM: Thanks for the compliments! And thanks also for the night vision gear you sent me to play with, it is definitely helping me with ideas for mounts. As far as a barrier goes, yes, that is certainly possible. All of my prototypes up to this point have had a barrier, but this particular unit was in the middle of being redone, and I just threw it back together and put it on a mount so I could send it to Cyber before I went on a trip. Missed a few other things, like light blocking foam.

@Brantlew: Yes, it is SBS mode only. I got your PM about possibly fixing that, responding now. :)

@Bishop51 again: LEEP optics have a very short focal length, so they would not be able to see the entire display anyways. Active shuttering is definitely something I would look into, that is actually how the Headplay does 3D! Like others have brought up, though, there are very few panels that would work well. I have heard rumblings of active glasses that can be used with Sony tablets/game consoles, but who knows if that will pan out.

@Cyber: Thanks for taking the time to take a look at this thing! I will probably send you some more stuff in the future, hopefully on less of a deadline so we can use cheaper shipping options. :lol: I have been messing around using software like Nthusim and Warpalizer to fix the aspect ratio issues, and it is working to a certain degree. I am talking to a few people, and I think this problem can be beat in several ways. Ergonomics wise, I already have a much more comfortable design that is based on the Phillips Scuba, which in turn was designed by Virtuality. Good artists copy, and great artists steal! ;) That design is being used in the wireless PR4, and does allow for glasses.

Resolution wise, there are a few things to try. The HMD I sent you did not have any diffusion film, which would make it impossible to see the individual pixels. Hopefully, advances in display technology will make that step unnecessary. Oh, and as far as being able to see the edges of the display: One way to fix that is to add a barrier, the other is to have higher magnification. I actually have a set of lenses I can add that magnify just a tiny bit more, removing the bleeding/edges on the far left and right, but they are 3 lenses per eye instead of just 2. Weighs a lot more, and I don't think it is worth the extra 10 degrees.

If you guys want to continue the projector HMD discussion, I can split it into its own thread. This is the best option for a projection HMD, in my opinion: http://www.amazon.com/iSiVaL-LED-Mini-H ... B002ZW2UN6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by cadcoke5 »

I had somehow overlooked Cyberreality's prior comment about using two projectors with polarizers over each eye. This really solves a lot of optical issues with getting a good field of vision for each eye. I suspect that this reduces the optics for the eyes to being a strong pair of reading glasses. Prices should also be dropping on tiny projectors, especially for the low-light output we would want for a HMD.

Do start a separate thread.

Joe Dunfee
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