The Sony HMD is real!

Post by **PalmerTech** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:07 am

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005SC ... B005SCYZGA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **powerjosl** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:37 am

lol, wrong link you copy pasted there???

let me help you with that:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/31/sony ... n-japan-no" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **WiredEarp** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:09 am

You beat me to it Powerjosl ;-(

LOVE your original link PalmerTech

45 degree FOV, 720P. Sign me up!!!!
I mean, I still want a FOV of at least double that, but this looks like a good candidate for modification. Also, it accepts side by side 3D, so should be hopefully compatible with everything new!

Post by **Okta** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:23 am

Did i wake up in Bizaro world? This is great news...dang and im the verge of buying a new screen now and this is coming out....

Post by **ShawmK** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:33 am

Wow - I really did not see this coming!

It will be interesting to see if this galvanises Zeiss at all; it casts a bit of a shadow over the forthcoming Cinemizer...

Post by **3dvison** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:42 am

I won't be able to use an HMD, after that PalmerTech link I may be blind...Did have free shipping..LOL

Post by **Okta** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:44 am

Hmm, specs are similar to the Zies oled. Perhaps they are using the same display and optics? In which case we can expect a spam load of these new hmd's just like the kopins 920's?

Post by **martinh** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:14 am

Has anyone worked out what 750" screen and 20m is in degrees of FoV? Does this have 6dof tracking as well. Super excited...

I'd buy the PS3 just to drive it...

Post by **Okta** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:28 am

martinh wrote:Has anyone worked out what 750" screen and 20m is in degrees of FoV? Does this have 6dof tracking as well. Super excited...

I'd buy the PS3 just to drive it...

We need someone who actually knows some math but 750 inches is 19.05m viewed from 20m whatever that is. Sit 23inches from you 22 inch lcd to get an idea, but with a long range cinema like focus should make objects appear larger than life. As WiredEarp posted i think around 45 degrees. That is certainly not immersive but plenty to fill your centre of attention with some outward glances to check the edges and corners.

Post by **martinh** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:35 am

I did the maths, it's about 26 degrees. I also go with plan A, getting the dVisor running again. It might have pisspoor resolution, but 107 degrees FoV and Fastrak tracking make it worth it I think.

Oh, and no tracker.

Post by **martinh** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:36 am

Possibly I did the maths wrong. Another site also mentioned 45 degrees. Which would be pretty nice for a non LEEP HMD.

Post by **foisi** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:57 am

Yes it is 45° :

w² + h² = 1905²
w/h = 1280/720

=> w = 1660.35mm

atan((1660.35/2)/2000)*2 = 45.0855°

Also to compare with what is said about the Cinemizer OLED in the survey (45" screen at 2m) the Sony HMD is about 75" at 2m

Post by **Fredz** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:49 am

Given a 750" screen viewed at a 20 meters distance :
- the width of the 16:9 750" screen is : 750 * 16 / sqrt(337) = 653,68"
- the width of the screen converted to meters is : 653,68 * 2.54 / 100 = 16,6m
- the horizontal field of view is : 2 * arctan ((16,6 / 2) / 20 ) = 45,08°
It's conform to what has been announced.

Post by **Fredz** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:50 am

DUH! Took too long to post the calculations, you beat me to it foisi...

EDIT : seems people in South France like maths more than others

Post by **nrp** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:06 am

The press release states 45 degree horizontal as well, which means roughly 51.6 degrees diagonal to compare to other HMDs.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:03 pm

Okta wrote:Hmm, specs are similar to the Zies oled. Perhaps they are using the same display and optics? In which case we can expect a spam load of these new hmd's just like the kopins 920's?

Very unlikely, sadly. Sony has their own OLED production facilities, and they were showing off their whole range of OLED panels (Including these) at a few trade shows. I cannot see them licensing out this technology, they are cramming it into everything they can of their own (Digital binoculars, camera viewfinders, and now this!)

And woops, that was definitely the wrong link I posted.

I would edit, but then none of the replies would make sense, so up it stays.

It seems like this absolutely blows anything by Vuzix out of the water. Even the Cinemizer would have a tough time competing, considering this has a full immersion mask and headstrap! The Cinemizer will not be dead in the water, though, the FPV community still wants it, and I am sure it will have composite input for those people.

The FOV sounds really, really nice, more than double the apparent image size of the VR1200! As for a headtracker, they have not announced one, but I would be willing to bet they jammed one in there. They have admitted to doing VR research for the PS3, and there would be no reason to announce headtracking on this thing without any games to take advantage of it, that is not Sony's style. Who knows, maybe an update in a few months that enables headtracking? Or... call me crazy, but maybe they will track that blue light on the front, like the PS3 move? It is a thought.

Oh, and one more thing: Yes, almost $800 sucks, but that is not a likely price for the US. Only the Japanese price has been announced, and they typically have to pay more. For example, the 3DS launched in Japan at the US dollars equivalent of $326! It is very likely the domestic price will be under $600.

Post by **Syntax** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:20 pm

I m stunned as everyone on this board that one of the big screen-manufacturing industry-players (sony) finally have taken a bold step towards the VR-Future. Lets hope they will get the marketing right so that this type of product wouldnt get lost in the VR/3D scepsis that is present today.

By the way some other Guy asked if and when the HMZ-T1 will shipped to US.
Well it seems to be highly likly that it will be shipped arround the world because in this video

---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd5ExrLqt6A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the pr-guy stated that they will release it in november for selected distribution in europe

so...

will see

btw I will going to the IFA 2011 myself and I will definatly give it a try and tell you guys my impression on it (hopefully with video)

Post by **nrp** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:03 pm

PalmerTech wrote: The FOV sounds really, really nice, more than double the apparent image size of the VR1200! As for a headtracker, they have not announced one, but I would be willing to bet they jammed one in there. They have admitted to doing VR research for the PS3, and there would be no reason to announce headtracking on this thing without any games to take advantage of it, that is not Sony's style. Who knows, maybe an update in a few months that enables headtracking? Or... call me crazy, but maybe they will track that blue light on the front, like the PS3 move? It is a thought.

As amazing as that would be, I don't think it's going to happen on this one. While decent gyros, accelerometers, and magnetometers have been massively dropping in price recently, it is still not cheap enough to just put in and not use. More importantly, HDMI appears to be the only interface on it. There is no USB or Bluetooth support to communicate the tracking data. For tracking the LED, it would be an underconstrained system. You wouldn't be able to get rotation data, which would be crucial for VR.

Post by **Okta** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:23 pm

Who is still getting the VR1200? LOL.

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:50 pm

What was seen cannot be unseen!!!!!!! Sorry PalmerTech, had to remove that link.

This is really quite amazing. Finally something decent coming to market. 720P and 45 degree horizontal FOV, much better specs than anything else right now (consumer market of course). I notice it has IPD adjustment but I can't tell if there is diopter focus adjustment. That is a huge deal for me, as I don't want to have to wear glasses under that thing. Hopefully it does. Also, they did not mention a headtracker, which the 1200VR and Cinemizer OLED will have. It would be really cool if Sony could add this, and somehow make it compatible with the PS3 (along with PC of course). Engadget was reporting that it will be available in the US for around $600, which is great news. Although it might be bad news for Vuzix if they have a significantly lower-end product selling for around the same price. But the more competition in the space the better.

Although, I think Sony is misrepresenting the product by claiming a ludicrous 750". I did the math, and a 45" horizontal FOV is equal to viewing a 23" monitor from 24". That is actually further away than I normally sit from my 23" monitor. I usually sit about 20" away, making this still fill somewhat less of my field of vision. Though it is a good step forward, I think people will be disappointed if they expect a 750" screen. Unless there are some crazy optics on this thing it basically amounts to false advertising.

Also, I do still plan to get the Vuzix 1200VR. I can always sell it when this Sony visor comes out if need be.

Post by **mcsilvio** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:42 pm

jumped on here as soon as i saw the article online.

head tracking is important for me so lets see. im still saving my grand for a good HMD

Post by **WiredEarp** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:11 pm

I also doubt it will have head tracking. Nothing has said it will.
PalmerTech had a good point tho - they could just slap a few LED's on it, then later on sell their own headtracker camera separately as an upgrade.

Personally, I wouldn't bother, i'm more interested in putting my Hydra on it (magnetic tracking!) than dealing with crappy optical tracking (good when facing ahead, kind of annoying when you want to look really far to one side or another). Same with most of the built in tracking solutions (gyros, etc) - I dont really know of any of these that are worthwhile (ie, dont drift). The best gyro solution i'm aware of is for FPV and uses magnetic tracking to recenter, but you need to sit facing north or south to get it to work correctly.

Due to all of this, i'd be happier if they dont include headtracking (unless they can really sort out the issues, perhaps a combination of gyro and optical to recenter/prevent drift would be good), rather than adding on an extra $100 for something i'm not going to use. Head trackers are only $100-$200, so this way, people can just add what they need.

I'm guessing the price point is still not low enough to bundle this with a console etc, but im hopeful that someday in the near future, someone will bring out a console with a HMD, gun controller and head tracking. I dont like consoles normally, but i'd buy one pretty much instantly if it was under $1000 and was dedicated to VR, as I imagine LOTS of people would... It would wickedly drive the creation of VR games.

Post by **Chiefwinston** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:34 pm

For those that don't know. Certain Playstation 3 games have built in head tracking. Gran Turismo 5 uses the standard camera. Granted it is head silhouette tracking. It does work. I'm sure with further software development it could work suprisingly well.

Peace

Post by **pierreye** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:50 pm

GT5 head tracker doesn't work in career mode. For PC, I would go for FreeTrack. Just mount 3 LED to your HMD and get a Wii Remote and a bluetooth dongle. Some flight simulator and driving simulator support TrackIR natively. Dirt 3 looks like a great game with 3D Vision support + TrackIR. Perfect for 3D HMD. As long as Sony HMD support 1.4a 3D format, I think 3D Vision can be hack to be compatible with the HMD with inf overide or just dump out the EDID and send it to Nvidia to be included in next driver release.

Post by **Chiefwinston** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:11 pm

True, but I believe you will only need the nvidia 3d play software to run a pc to this. No hack required.

peace

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:16 pm

Surely Nvidia will be supporting this when it comes out. I'm sure Sony can afford to make it happen.

Post by **Fredz** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:24 pm

cybereality wrote:Although, I think Sony is misrepresenting the product by claiming a ludicrous 750". I did the math, and a 45" horizontal FOV is equal to viewing a 23" monitor from 24". That is actually further away than I normally sit from my 23" monitor. I usually sit about 20" away, making this still fill somewhat less of my field of vision. Though it is a good step forward, I think people will be disappointed if they expect a 750" screen. Unless there are some crazy optics on this thing it basically amounts to false advertising.

Their maths are correct, 45° FOV is really like watching a 750" screen from a 20 meters distance. The real question is why did they choose this scale instead of the one used by other HMD manufacturers (ie. generally more in the 50" range for screen size).

Perhaps because there is defocusing that makes the screen appear at that 20 meters distance, but I don't know if it's really possible. I though it was possible to simulate an infinite distance for the screen though.

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:30 pm

Fredz wrote:Their maths are correct, 45° FOV is really like watching a 750" screen from a 20 meters distance. The real question is why did they choose this scale instead of the one used by other HMD manufacturers (ie. generally more in the 50" range for screen size).

Yes, but its misleading. They might as well say it looks like a 400,000,000 km movie screen seen from 3 light years.

Post by **3dvison** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:35 pm

I have been waiting so long to get an HMD, that I may still buy the Wrap1200VR and sell it if/when the sony makes it to the USA.
Is november the release date for Japan ? And if so, how long would it be till the USA release ?

SEEMS So STRANGE to be asking these questions, I just did not think Sony was going to be releasing this HMD to market..WOW

Post by **Chiefwinston** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:37 pm

yeah, I agree cyber. I hate marketing bull crap,too.

peace

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:43 pm

According to Engadget, it is coming in the US in November/December for $600:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/31/sony ... -on-video/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Fredz** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:55 pm

As I said, maybe their optics make it look like the screen really appears on focus at that distance. That or they thought that a cinema comparison (750") was more appealing than a TV comparison (50").

Either way, what they say is correct and I really don't see a problem here. The same could be said for Vuzix with their Wrap 1200 and the 70" screen viewed from 10 feet away. Why not a 55" reference as they used for the Wrap 310XL ?

Post by **PalmerTech** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:08 pm

nrp wrote:As amazing as that would be, I don't think it's going to happen on this one. While decent gyros, accelerometers, and magnetometers have been massively dropping in price recently, it is still not cheap enough to just put in and not use. More importantly, HDMI appears to be the only interface on it. There is no USB or Bluetooth support to communicate the tracking data. For tracking the LED, it would be an underconstrained system. You wouldn't be able to get rotation data, which would be crucial for VR.

Tracking the LED would not be ideal, but it could be done for basic stuff. Like Chiefwinston mentioned, GT5 already supports "head tracking" via a camera, and that is with no LED at all! And they could get rotation date. Note how the LED diffuser is a fairly wide shape, with very defined edges. They manage pretty well with just a glowing ball for PS3 Move, I think there is at least a decent chance they will add support at some point. Not for really serious stuff, but for looking out car windows/glancing around corners? Why not!

^hopeless optimist

Not that I would want it, some kind of dedicated tracker would be better. But hey, whatever drives mainstream VR adoption! I think we are really poised on the edge of a revolution. Until last night, HMDs with specs like this were strictly the domain of the $5000+ market!

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:28 pm

Really headtracking is half the point of an HMD (stereoscopy is the other half). Though I just can't see Sony creating a PC driver to add headtracking (or 3D) to games. Surely they have the resources to do it, but the PC market has just never been their focus. Although it would be cool if they did something for PS3 (more likely) it might be a wasted effort if it only gets support in a half dozen games.

Post by **nrp** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:49 pm

The 750" in the description, the lack of a headtracker, and HDMI input all add up to suggest that their primary target market is people who want to watch 3D Blu ray movies and 3D television.

It would be quite nice to integrate with the PS3 though. Considering the effort they put into the PS2 Eye, PS3 Eye, and the Move despite the lack of support from game developers, it's possible they will make a PS3 version with a head tracker.

Post by **Johnny-Mnemonic** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:43 pm

Holysh#t... amazing news guys!
Can't wait for it to be released.

Also design is more helmet-like, rather the glasses-like, which can be more comfy to wear it, and it is better for immersiveness because it blocks outside light.

Post by **seattledesi** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:51 pm

I hope the breakout box supports 2+ displays.. it will be a shame if the 3d experience is limited to only one user.

Post by **ancjob** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:12 am

seattledesi wrote:I hope the breakout box supports 2+ displays.. it will be a shame if the 3d experience is limited to only one user.

yeah! art.says hdmi in as well as out - thru that brickbox[controlbox] which looks like VCR type box to me and i was cursing headplay for the controlbox they had for their visor....

emagin now will have tough time selling their obsolete junk for usd$1799....once sony HMD is released

i think 2012 will be year of HMDs...with cinemizer OLED , wrap 1200VR and Sony HMD available to order ...

Post by **technotica** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:00 am

Couldn't you just put some other systems headtracker on it? Like from Vuzix? The headtracker doesn't care which hmd it sits on or does it?

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:30 am

Yeah, I don't really see why people care too much about the head tracker. They are usually pretty average anyway (does anyone actually know if a good one that doesn't lose track?
The only decent tracker I've ever managed is the IR tracking type (trackir, freetrack etc). These are sweet for a limited area and angles, but not much good for stand up VR(although, i have thought that with multiple cameras and a hacked version of freetrack you might be able to 'pass off' the tracking to another camera to allow you to be tracked more efficiently).

I do think there could be a good gyro based one, if its a hybrid (like I've heard of a few semi decent magnetic recalibrating gyros) that recalibrates from an absolute position source. But really, it seems the only truely decent current tracker would involve magnetic sensing, and this is so far been too expensive for the consumer market (hurray Hydra).

At this price point every extra dollar spent on stuff that's not their obvious core purpose (people wanting to watch movies) is going to cost them sales.