PR2, a DIY, low cost, high FOV stereoscopic HMD

Post by **pierreye** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:31 pm

I would pay USD 100 per eye for any lens that can bring Sony HMD close to 100 degree FOV. We had been waiting so long for a feasible HMD for gaming and it's now or never. I'm getting the Lumagen Mini soon so if you want me to test out any configuration such as convert 3D to SBS format or setting the aspect ratio, do let me know.

Post by **brantlew** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:50 pm

PalmerTech - I think your price points are perfectly fine. $100 a lens doesn't sound so bad - and I think the full 120 FOV is worth the expense instead of the cheaper lenses. I'm patient though and I'm more than happy to wait until you finalize your designs. Thanks for all the work.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:18 pm

@Bobv5: Yup, that would be an all-inclusive cost. And I do plan on sticking with what I have, to some degree... But a single lens design would be a lot lighter, too. This is the reason the PR3 onward will use an interchangeable lens faceplate, you can decide what you want for yourself!

@Pierreye: I have access to some lenses that should be able to get 75 degree FOV from the HMZ-T1, but they would cost a lot more than $100, as they were custom made glass prototypes for 100+ FOV from 0.97" SXGA Kopin displays. If they were mass produced, then they would cost a few dollars, at most.

@Brantlew: As I said before, the single lenses would be lighter, too. No need to thank me for my work, though; I get paid for it now!

Post by **InvaderZIM** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:51 am

Hey Palmer, here's a youtube video of the flightsim that I'm setting up for, it's called "DCS A-10C". This is a commercial version of the USAF's A-10C trainer/simulator with all the classified info removed for public release. I'm building my entire computer around running it perfectly, don't have it in 3D yet though. All of the images in the video are from actual in simulation gameplay, I can confirm that.

http://youtu.be/WUu4SV3GjVw

My current system won't run it well, but I got a new computer coming in a few weeks so I should be all set up. Will probably need some help getting things going in 3D for the sim though to try out the HMD to full effect.

I also agree with the others, personally I'd pay $2,500 per eye or more for a nice HMD that had a wide FOV with higher quality optics and displays that were high resolution. I'm an optician by trade and from what I know, your prices are a real bargain compared to what I'm used to when it comes to quality optics, $200 for two lenses that give a WFOV is an absolute bargain.

Post by **Okta** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:09 am

Invader: Being an optician shouldn't you be our best bet at researching and sourcing optics for different HMD's?

Post by **InvaderZIM** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:13 am

Well, to be honest optics go to various projects, and I only recently started learning about HMD's and the technology used to create the WFOV optics.

Most of the optics I work with are for the battlefield, and it's a completely different type of optics design when your working with, say a large tracking telescope, or night vision equipment versus an HMD with a digital display requiring a wide field of view.

I'm trying to catch up though on the optics involved.

Post by **foisi** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:43 am

OK, 200$ seems a bit too expensive for something you say that won't fit with my 7.2" panel. thanks anyway

Post by **mAchiNE** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:45 am

PalmerTech wrote:The housing is actually really easy to make, the hard part is the head mount! I think I am going to make my future prototypes with night vision goggle (NVG) mounts, since they are standardized and will let you use a wide variety of head/helmet mounts.

Palmer have you seen these Medical Headbands:
http://www.oaktreegroupllc.com/html/tc5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This one looks to be the same one used in the Virtual Research V4. Virtual research just added a metal strip from the Browband up through the top part of the Headband and out the back where it used the cables as a counter balance. The metal strip also fixes the Browband in place (on the V4 the Screen/optic assemblies are mounted to the browband)
I emailed them about cost and they are a reasonable $82.65USD + Shipping
They can come with the leather padding (as on the V4) or with NeoPrene padding and they can add in cable retainers to the top and back of the Headband if required.
They have top and rear size adjustments so should fit most size heads comfortably, and headphones can easily be worn over the top or permanently attached if required.
Seems like a great option for a head mount to base a DIY HMD on in my opinion

Post by **cybereality** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:50 pm

@mAchiNE: Nice find man! That actually looks really useful for a DIY HMD.

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:46 pm

Id easily pay US$200 for any lenses that could take a Sony to 90 degree FOV.
Really, the price isn't so important to me, I just need REAL VR, not this crappy 'screen in the distance' VR.

Post by **mAchiNE** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:07 pm

@Cyber
You can thank Tone from VRtifacts for the find, he linked to that site on another thread a while back, I just had a good look through their site and noticed that the TC5 on there looked identical to the V4 headband (I have a non working V4 in pieces that i compared it to), and as that is one of the most comfortable HMDs around, thats why I thought it the TC5 would make a good starting point to build a DIY HMD, especially seeming as it is so cheap!

Post by **InvaderZIM** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:27 am

Have to agree, very nice find Machine, the headmount is a good low cost alternative to the NVG mounts, and it's exportable for use to send to our friends overseas.

I did notice a problem though regarding NVG headmounts. They are actually ITAR regulated and can't be sent outside the U.S. I'm not up to date on other countries NVG regulations, but some European countries also have restrictions on NVG headmounts for export which can cause problems when using them for HMD's and shipping them overseas.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:53 pm

Hey guys,

The PR2 has been rebuilt as a handheld unit, looks a bit nicer now. I guess I will call it the PR2.5?

Here is a pretty terrible video, but it shows you that the pixels are not nearly as noticeable as you would think. The FOV on this camera is only about 60 degrees, I could not figure out a way to capture the full 120 degree FOV, since rotating the camera put the lens too far away. So like I said, this is just a quick video that was thrown together to dispel any thoughts about the pixels looking like footballs or something.

Uploaded the video to this post, don't want something this rough on my Youtube.

Post by **brantlew** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:34 pm

I think it looks incredible! I'm way more interested in your mods than anything on the consumer market in the foreseeable future. This makes the argument between the Sony and the ST1080 look like a joke. Seriously, you should consider creating a business out of this if you have not already. Otherwise - quit teasing us and give us the build instructions already!

PS: What's the rectangular artifact?

Post by **PalmerTech** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:49 am

I don't want to give build instructions because I am still tweaking it continuously, and some of the things I am messing around with are a bit expensive. Better to finalize it, then release full plans!

I actually do plan on making at least a few of these to sell on a commercial level. Right now, I have a prototype that has a shell made of very thin sheet metal, strong and lightweight! Problem is, I have a lot going on in life, both at work and at home. My goal is to have the first demo units in the hands of people by the end of December, and a few more by the end of January.

That rectangular artifact was some Youtube glitch, it moved an element to the middle of the screen for some reason.

Post by **Synexious** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:31 pm

brantlew wrote:I think it looks incredible! I'm way more interested in your mods than anything on the consumer market in the foreseeable future. This makes the argument between the Sony and the ST1080 look like a joke. Seriously, you should consider creating a business out of this if you have not already. Otherwise - quit teasing us and give us the build instructions already!

PS: What's the rectangular artifact?

Both the HMZ-T1 and the ST1080 have higher resolutions, don't they? Could these lenses you have, Palmer, or some other lenses you have or can get/make, be applied to a triple surround HMD? That's what I'm interested in eventually doing.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:10 pm

Yes, they are both much higher resolution. There are several panels coming out next year that will allow me to quadruple my resolution, though, and put it above the HMZ-T1. I am working on making a triple panel version of the PR4, should be a full 270 degree FOV!

It is going to be pretty large/heavy, though, so might have to stay a boom mounted display.

Unfortunately, the lenses I am using are not suited to microdisplays. I might have more for you in terms of HMZ-T1 replacement optics come February.

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:29 pm

Thats one mean looking turtle! Great work man!

Post by **Synexious** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:32 am

PalmerTech wrote:I am working on making a triple panel version of the PR4, should be a full 270 degree FOV!

Wow! 270°!!! I'm sure it will be amazing for gaming, at least. How would a triple panel HMD work for desktop use, though? Since I've never used an HMD (although I will in a few days

), I didn't consider, until brantlew mentioned it, that the screens are fixed and one must move the eyes, not the head, to see the screen edges.

It is going to be pretty large/heavy, though, so might have to stay a boom mounted display

That gave me an idea - a boom-mounted HMD swiveling on a pole, with a ring of short treadmills around it. The user puts his eyes against the boom HMD, and grabs a pistol grip or other controller that turns with the HMD. He does not move forward or backward, but rather remains a fixed distance from the center pole, moving in a circle, sidestepping from treadmill to treadmill.

Have you ever considered a nine screen HMD? The center screen would be surrounded all on sides.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:04 pm

It basically won't work for desktop use.

It is really hard to comfortably focus on anything outside your middle 90 degrees, so the side panels don't do anything but add extra FOV. I am driving it with 4 cameras in Unity, getting it working on normal PC games is going to be hard.

A nine screen HMD would not be worth it with the displays/optics I am using, I already have a vertical FOV of about 100 degrees.

EDIT: Woops, said 100 degree horizontal, meant 100 degree vertical! Fixed.

Post by **Bishop51** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:37 pm

Saving my pennies for your first efforts Palmer! Can you possibly set up a newsletter or something to let us know when you're closer to releasing your first rough plans and or hardware?

I think I mentioned this before but I have a lot of experience launching various products and helping others get promotional, branding and infrastructure related materials ready for launch. I'd be more than happy to talk to you and or help you create a little dedicated site for this online. Hell, I'd even consider working for trade! You can check out my main business here http://www.worldworksgames.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , some video support examples here http://www.worldworksgames.com/store/in ... ges&pgid=9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I also have secondary business links I'd be happy to provide. denunger@worldworksgames.com

Post by **brantlew** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:39 pm

I mentioned in another thread that what we need is a virtual desktop projection application so you can render the desktop onto a rectangle in virtual space. Combined with a head tracker you could render an "insanely" large high resolution screen to interact with or even a curved hemispherical screen.

Does anybody know if there is an existing tool that does this? If not then a basic implementation could probably be worked out relatively easy starting with one of the open-source VNC projects. Basically you would take the "screen scrape" and instead of compressing and transmitting it across a network, you would send it as a texture into the 3D rendering pipeline. (If I remember correctly Windows actually has some sort of special desktop buffer that is optimized for screen grabbing) I'm sure there are a myriad details, but I think that basic design would work. Sounds pretty fun actually, but I'm tied up with another project, so it would be a while before I could get around to this.

Edit: Not exactly what I had in mind but at least it demonstrates that the tech is possible (much more laggy than I would have imagined) Seems to be implemented as a desktop replacement instead of a screen scraper.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XVljUosDHQ[/youtube]

Post by **PalmerTech** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:55 pm

@Bishop51: I might make a newsletter at some point, that is a good idea. You can be sure that I will post anything here, though! I don't want to make a site or anything until I have sent out some demo units for feedback, the very last thing I want is to fall into typical overhyping that VR products tend to get.

Once I get to the right point, I am sure we could work out some kind of agreement. I am pretty good at setting up basic websites, but my skills only go so far. On a side note, are you experienced with PHP? If so, I could really use your help on a side-project of mine.

@Brantlew: That would be a really impressive tool to have, I have seen a lot of concept art for HMDs that uses the idea, but nothing real.

I want to finalize the physical build and the optics before making any kind of big push. The initial batch of these will probably retail in the several thousand dollar range for military/medical/corporate purchases, but sold at-cost to the people on this forum (Probably a few hundred bucks). Hopefully there will be higher resolution panels available by the end of that phase that would allow for a bigger consumer push. None of the big companies are going to make a helmet style HMD, so I think the niche is definitely there!

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:30 pm

@brantlew: There was this software I used years ago called SphereXP (http://www.spheresite.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) that made one huge desktop using DirectX. I remember using it when I first got my VR920 and I could pan around with a P5 data glove. It was actually pretty fun, you should check it out. Didn't realize they updated for Windows 7, I want to play with this again.

Post by **Synexious** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:26 pm

PalmerTech wrote:It basically won't work for desktop use. It is really hard to comfortably focus on anything outside your middle 90 degrees, so the side panels don't do anything but add extra FOV.

I see. Perhaps, though, having three displays would enhance brantlew's idea of panning around a virtual desktop, by allowing you to see what is off to the sides before you actually pan the center of your vision over to it.

I am driving it with 4 cameras in Unity, getting it working on normal PC games is going to be hard.

Four virtual cameras and three screens? I thought three screens would be perfect for 3D Vision Surround.

Post by **Synexious** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:33 pm

cybereality wrote:@brantlew: There was this software I used years ago called SphereXP (http://www.spheresite.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) that made one huge desktop using DirectX. I remember using it when I first got my VR920 and I could pan around with a P5 data glove. It was actually pretty fun, you should check it out. Didn't realize they updated for Windows 7, I want to play with this again.

Ah, yes! I remember playing with the trial of it in high school, 2007, I think. I stopped using it because it was a paid program at the time, and I didn't think it was functional enough for me to use it as a replacement for the traditional desktop. It looks perfect for an HMD, though, and they've probably added features in the past four years. Plus, it's now freeware.

Post by **brantlew** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:11 pm

Aphradonis wrote:It looks perfect for an HMD

Well almost. It's perfect for something like the Sony, but if we are talking about a really high FOV then you don't want to have any tools on the edge of the screen or they will be practically unusable. From the screenshots I see there is still a taskbar on the bottom that would need to be dealt with. The desktop we are talking about has to be 100% projected without any front-plane elements. In fact the more I think about it, we are probably talking about an entirely new shell that never transitions into a traditional 2D desktop so that you can stay wearing your HMD for the entire session.

Post by **Synexious** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:58 am

It could be good to have the task bar always in reach at the bottom, instead of having to look down for it.

Post by **WiredEarp** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:31 am

@PalmerTech: love the look of that HMD. Beautiful big lenses and looks very immersive. Especially with that source material

Post by **InvaderZIM** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:45 pm

The system really looks great Palmer, glad to see it's all coming along nicely.

Just to be clear, we're not recieving the viewmaster at the end of the video right?

Sorry, I couldn't resist, but man it looks amazing, just hard to imagine how much more immersive it is when you have your own eyes in the device. Uhh, your device, not the viewmaster

Can't wait!!

Post by **adventurer** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:37 am

PalmerTech, that's so fantastic! consumer level HMD will have better future with your work. Hope that after you succeed with your final prototype with great resolution, you will start a business and sell your HMD for all average VR enthusiasts. I'd love to wait for next some few years to be able to buy your product and hope the price will below $1000.

Post by **mAchiNE** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:30 pm

Looking very very nice Palmer, can't wait to get my hands one one at some point! (even if I have to make it myself off your plans)

Also this High resoloution panel you are talking of sounds promising! with that this setup will blow everything else available atm out of the water....

Aphradonis wrote:It could be good to have the task bar always in reach at the bottom, instead of having to look down for it.

what you really want is a desktop with the "task bar" in the center of the screen

Post by **TheLostBrain** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:14 pm

Nice work!

I know how much time and effort your current revision represents as I've also been working on a design for a long time.

Your design and mine are similar but there are some defining differences.

Unfortunately I've been very tied up and my last revision has been sitting but when I have a bit more time (soon I hope) I may come back and do some posts for contrast and comparison.

BTW: Good job on the lenses. A hint I learned in my early revisions before moving away from glass... cheap (<$10) 10x 75mm macro lenses off ebay (non-green glass) are really just 75mm dia, 100mm fl plano convex and are just as good as any much more expensive lens you might get from Thorlabs, Edmund etc. Also these lenses cut surprisingly well in a wet tile saw.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:46 pm

Thanks! I would love to see your design, hope you find some time. Even some quick pics with a basic description would be awesome.

Most HMDs in the past decade rely on microdisplays, so I am glad to know someone else is working with larger ones.

Thanks for the tip on macro lenses! I don't like working with glass if I can help it, but I will probably pick up a few to play around with. I am rebuilding my Fakespace Boom 3C with all new optics and displays, might be helpful for that project.

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:35 pm

PalmerTech was nice enough to send me the PR4 prototype for review. I just got to check it out tonight. This this is amazing!

PR4.JPG

This is the first time I actually felt like I was using a serious virtual reality device and not just looking at a laptop screen through a toilet paper roll. The FOV is HUGE! This is great. The immersion is just wild, there were a few moments where I was getting sucked into the game. Not 100% perfect, but the closest I have seen to real VR immersion, and it doesn't even have a headtracker!

In terms of vertical FOV, it was more than sufficient, and I don't think going further would matter. The horizontal FOV could still be larger, but it seems to cover at the full stereoscopic overlap. It seems there was still even some space on the side that the optics covered but there was no screen. So maybe with a wider screen it could go further. Even so, it was massively massive. Totally took a crap on all the 30 degree junk we've had on the consumer market. Even the Sony is not looking so hot anymore.

In terms of resolution, it seemed decent. I believe the panel was 800x600 or something close to that. I got the best results from that resolution anyhow. With the magnification so high, you could see individual pixels, but it wasn't too bad. The display at least looked fairly crisp in the center, and it blurred as it reached the edges. Certainly good enough to play a game, even if reading the health/bullet-count was problematic. Maybe not as sharp as the Sony, but way better than the 1200VR. Another issue was the aspect-ratio needed to be in a strange format (I think 4:3 half width but NOT squished). There is not really any software available that does this. I could play games with the IZ3D driver in SBS mode, but the aspect ratio was a little off. In the Stereoscopic Player I could set the right aspect ratio, but then there were huge black bars, which killed the immersion.

I did an unboxing video, and will probably take another quick video showing the display quality. Will have to upload for tomorrow. Will post more thoughts soon. Please, ask questions.

Post by **brantlew** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:04 am

I'm jealous Cyber. Curious to hear more of your gaming reports. Is it impossible to use as a desktop?

Seems like you could easily use your Vuzix mouse emulator without any hassle. Just set the PR2 as the desktop and the Vuzix as a second screen just to power the tracker. Then tape the glasses on top of the helmet and you've got a quick and dirty solution.

Post by **Fredz** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:02 am

Maybe you could have a look at http://widescreengamingforum.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for your aspect ratio problem, I don't know if it'll apply but there are a lot of discussions about anamorphic rendering in games there. Also Nthusim may be an option too. Can't wait to see the review...

Post by **brantlew** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:16 am

The helmet looks great Palmer. Haven't seen that yet - just your handheld version. What is it? Looks super comfy - can you confirm Cyber?

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:28 am

That looks awesome. PalmerTech, what is the head mount made from?

Cyber, whats it like playing Left4Dead?

Post by **PalmerTech** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:54 pm

The horizontal FOV can definitely be wider, right now it is somewhere around 110 degrees. One of my (many) current projects is making a tiled HMD, my bench unit pushes past 270 degree horizontal FOV, makes it impossible to see the edges of the screen, even when turning your eyes all the way to the edges! The resolution is pretty bad in the periphery, but that is fine. Our real peripheral vision is crap, too!

I won't have a prototype till the end of February, most likely.

The panel is actually 1280x800, but 800X600 can give better results for consumer games in SBS mode. Another tip, Cyber: I usually put a foam light blocker around the lenses, but I did not have enough spare foam lying around. Trying playing in the dark, or perhaps taping strips of black paper to the sides of the main unit.

The head mount comes from a Visionics LVES. However, the LVES mount is made by taking two of those dental headgear bands, cutting off the bands from one of them, and riveting them to the other. Easy and relatively cheap to duplicate! I have another mount design that I am working with, but it is currently being used with the wireless PR4 prototype.