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 Pleased with New AMD HD3D HDMI 1.4 Setting 
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One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:16 pm
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I am very pleased with the performance of my recently assembled system including a VT25, AMD's newer 6970 graphics card with Open Stereo HD3D capability, and TriDef's Ignition gaming software. With an HDMI 1.4 connection, I appear to be achieving full 1080P (60 3D fps), while the graphics performance of the 6970 showcases the rendering performance of TriDef's Ignition with games like Crysis. More discussion is available in TriDef's Discussion forum http://www.ddd.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 4&start=20, including rendered fps for several games and viewing distance.
Computer: MacPro 5,1 (mid 2010 model) - 8.0 GB RAM, 6-core Xeon W3680 @ 3.33 GHx, 512 GB SSD (plus 2 TB standard disk storage), Sapphire 6970 graphics card with Arctic Cooling Accelero XTREME Plus cooling modification, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit - Experience Index 7.0, NVIDIA GT120 graphics card for dual boot (Windows/Mac) with 30 in Apple 2560 x 1600 monitor previously used for gaming.
HDMI 1.4 connection to Panasonic VIERA TC-P50VT25 3D HDTV (I believe all 4 HDMI connectors are 1.4a compliant). The connection was simple plug-and-play between computer and the VT25. Within the computer, AMD HD3D HDMI 1.4a settings are required for Ignition and CyberLink's PowerDVD 10 Ultra (3D movie playback).


Last edited by whyme466 on Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:29 am, edited 3 times in total.



Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:25 pm
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Petrif-Eyed
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You don't have 1080p at 60Hz per eye, no HDMI transmission chip is able to do that. You're more probably using 1080p at 24Hz per eye or maybe 1080p at 30Hz per eye (60Hz for both), but for the latter I knew only Samsung sets able to do this. 1080p at 60Hz per eye is not even defined in the HDMI 1.4 or 1.4a specifications.


Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:49 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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I believe I am obtaining 1080P at 60Hz each eye, not 30 Hz. Read the entire TriDef message thread link, including my discussion with AMD and Panasonic tech support (after a similar erroneous claim in the TriDef forum using your identical argument). Your comments are not based upon current capabilities using the new AMD chipset and the TriDef HDMI 1.4a mode. I have included photos documenting my operation at this rate in the TrIDef message thread. For example, the TriDef OSD Performance tab indicates that the 6970 performance for Dead Space 2 can exceed 40 fps (no vsync). This is the Ignition rendering rate, not the display rate. This rendering rate would be impossible to achieve with 30Hz operation.

Simply connect the system components and measure/observe the results, rather than rely upon an academic discussion of 1.4 specs. I also talked to a TriDef senior engineer in their LA office about this capabillity. He independently tried this AMD/HDMI 1.4 connection with a non-Panasonic 3D HDTV, and he acknowledged that he was achieving 1080P at 60Hz each eye (his remote INFO button indicated the HDTV was operating in 1080P/60Hz/3D).


Last edited by whyme466 on Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:48 pm
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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I don't understand how this is possible. Everything I have read and understood about the HDMI 1.4a standard states that there is not enough bandwidth for 1080P60 content and that it is not a valid format. You are claiming that it works. Now, I am not saying you are wrong. I suppose its possible that it works. But thats a stretch. Why would all these companies, from Nvidia to the HDMI licensing group themselves, claim that the hardware just wasn't capable of supporting 1080P60 until some undetermined point in time (maybe late this year, maybe next year, who knows)? You are telling me they built in extra features, yet didn't market them and publicly claimed they didn't exist? Why would they do this? It doesn't make sense. If you want to provide proof, you need to take some better pictures then those thumbnails you uploaded on the DDD forum.

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:19 am
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Petrif-Eyed
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The hdmi 1.4 (as well as 1.3) standard has way higher bandwidth than the chips themselves allows. I don't yet understand how anyone is allowed to manufacture chips which do not meet or exceeds the standard so it's a riddle why we have this situation today. So:
Maybe this tv-set have a chipset which meets the hdmi 1.4 standard or: The tv-set recieives the framepacked signal at 60Hz and then outputs the signal as 120Hz shuttered which of course is no bigger obstacle with todays tech. The memory for frameinterpolation could easily be used so still no mods to the telly has to be done.
I don't really know though....

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:02 am
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Petrif-Eyed
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whyme466 wrote:
I am obtaining 1080P at 60Hz each eye, not 30 Hz. Read the entire TriDef message thread link, including my discussion with AMD and Panasonic tech support (after a similar erroneous claim in the TriDef forum using your identical argument).
You didn't bring up any factual evidence that your TV supports 1080p at 60Hz for each eye, you only said that we should believe you because you've seen it, despite the fact that these displays are not physically able to do what you claim. Looks a lot like someone who saw Virgin Mary and tries to convince everyone that it's indeed true. Sorry, but I don't buy those kind of feable arguments.

It seems it's not possible to have a logical discussion about this with you, so I don't see the point in keeping on arguing. When you come with a little bit more meat we can then have a serious discussion, but for now I'll keep on basing my opinions on numbers, facts and reasoning rather than on feelings.


Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:51 am
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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Well according to this thread: viewtopic.php?p=38525#p38525 , the 1080P60 3D format is in the 1.4a spec, its just an optional, "secondary" mode, meaning most (or all) CEMs won't bother to support it. And even if they wanted to support it, supposedly the chips available today cannot handle this. We have the actual president of HDMI going on record saying that 1080P60 is not possible on current gen HDMI tech. So is he lying or is he mistaken?


Skip to around 2:48

@whyme466: I believe you saw something on the TV, I am just not convinced it was 1080P60 3D. Maybe it was only 720P (supposedly a lot of people can't tell the difference). Maybe it was 1080P24, which might look alright if you were playing Crysis and only getting 25FPS anyway. Maybe it was side-by-side. Hell, maybe it wasn't even 3D at all. Who knows? You are going to have to take some pictures (like of the OSD on the top right corner when it initializes the mode). A video won't work unless you have a camera that can do 60FPS (and even then you will have to upload the original file since YouTube converts everything down to 30FPS max). I want to believe you, but I am just not seeing any evidence aside from your opinion.

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:57 am
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Petrif-Eyed
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Likay wrote:
I don't yet understand how anyone is allowed to manufacture chips which do not meet or exceeds the standard so it's a riddle why we have this situation today.
Maybe because the only mandatory frequency for HDMI is only 165MHz as defined in the 1.0 spec which is sufficient to support 1080p at 60Hz in 2D or 720p at 60Hz per eye in 3D.


Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:13 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Try it...


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Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:26 am
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Petrif-Eyed
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@image: I'm sorry, but it's not a proof that the hdmi port is running at 1920x1080@120Hz.

Fredz wrote:
Likay wrote:
I don't yet understand how anyone is allowed to manufacture chips which do not meet or exceeds the standard so it's a riddle why we have this situation today.
Maybe because the only mandatory frequency for HDMI is only 165MHz as defined in the 1.0 spec which is sufficient to support 1080p at 60Hz in 2D or 720p at 60Hz per eye in 3D.
Yeah, but the requirements for 1.3 and 1.4 is higher so it's quite dishonest mention those so when it "only" have 1.0 speed (even if meeting the extended protocols...).

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:33 am
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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That image says 1080P | Cinema | 3D. To me, "cinema" says 24Hz, not 60Hz.

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:53 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Sorry. I had been watching a 3D movie, and I accidently left the VT25 in its Cimena visual settings mode. I actually game using its Game visual mode. As further illustration, I have included Dead Space 2's visual settings panel.


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Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:29 am
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Petrif-Eyed
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As the picture shows, you are in 1920x1080 at 60Hz. It's not using an HDMI 1.4a frame packing format, so this is basically only 30Hz per eye. Only one frame is sent for each refresh instead of two in frame packing mode.

As I said previously it is already supported on other TVs like the Samsung ones, but it's nice to know that it also works on the Panasonic VT25. Actually this mode is in the list of supported input signals in the VT25 manual (1080p at 59,94Hz or 60Hz).

The fact that the HUD is displaying 70.9 fps is not meaningfull in any way since you've vsync turned off. It just means that the images are rendered faster than what the input of the TV can handle for a single frame, so you should see some tearing because of incomplete images being rendered.

Case closed.


Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:08 pm
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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Well in that case, its just referring the the color setting and has nothing to do with the refresh rate or 3D. The latest image does seem to indicate that the game itself is rendering in full quality 1080P60. However it still doesn't prove that this source material to being transmitted to the TV without some loss. We know that PCs can handle these resolutions and beyond in 3D. The question is whether the HDMI chipset can handle it to successfully transmit that signal to a TV. As far as I know, it can't. Can you maybe try a really old game that gets really high FPS. Half-Life 2 would be a good choice. Play it in 2D mode on the TV, so you get a feel for the look of 60Hz game. Then play it in 3D. See if it looks as smooth. We would still have to trust you, but at least it would be a fair test. If you test graphically intense games it won't matter cause something like Crysis or Dead Space 2 might only be getting 30FPS on a mid-range system, so it would look fine at 1080P24.

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:12 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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All games behave (visual quality) as if they are being fully rendered in high quality 1080P. I do know technical details about AMD's HDMI implementation. I have asked AMD for clarification via their forums (see http://forums.amd.com/forum/messageview ... did=147594), but I have not had a response yet. I have even contacted AMD technical support for clarifcation. They said full 1080P 3D operation was possible, but they could not point me to supporting documentation.

I recently finished Killzone 3 in 3D (720P), with my PS3 connected to the VT25. Dead Space 2 appears to have crisper resolution, no distorted text like Killzone 3, and was equally response to controller interaction.

I have found Crysis (DX10, Very High resolution setting, 1920 x 1080, 4xAA) continues to be a good challenging testing benchmark for both visual quality and game performance, among the game titles I have (primarily newer titles). A video would demonstrate smooth Crysis game performance and controller interaction, including areas like Paradise Lost. I have included a photo of this challenging rendered area of the game, with some of the slowest (but still good) 6970 performance.

I encourage independent assessment and testing of this interface. I am simply sharing my own experiences with my new system.


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Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:34 pm
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3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
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I specifically was telling you not to use Crysis. You aren't even getting 20FPS with that title, how do you expect to tell the difference between 24Hz and 60Hz?

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:39 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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I used Crysis as a reference point for interested gamers, for a more challenging system stress test. For other games, I could post pictures showing performance like Dead Space 2's (where Ignition routinely reports over 40 FPS during active gaming). When I turn 3D off in Dead Space 2, I see NO change in visual quality, and virtually no change in game performance/responsiveness. Crysis game performance improves slightly, since incremental change in FPS is more discernable around 20 FPS.

I understand the concept of bandwidth constraints (see http://www.tomshardware.com/news/radeon ... 12403.html), but I remain confused by the performance that I continue to experience, versus the reported limitations of TMDS. If I am somehow operating at 24 Hz, then I suspect most people would not be able to distinguish the performance I am experiencing from a system truly operating at 60 Hz.

By the way, when I contacted Panasonic technical sales prior to my purchase, I asked how Panasonic tested their ability to display true 1080P 60 Hz 3D source content. The rep did not elaborate, but he claimed the VT25 was capable of being driven to 1080P 90 Hz - so, this HDTV may have the potential of being driven beyond formal 1.4a rates. I still have not had a response to my AMD forum question, so I recently tried escalating my request for more information.

The overall gaming environment continues to be great, though not quite like the Eyefinity 5X1 setup...


Last edited by whyme466 on Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:13 am
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Petrif-Eyed
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Required bandwith for different modes :
- 1920x1080 @ 60Hz : 139MHz
- 1280x720 @ 120Hz : 148.5MHz
- 1920x2205 @ 24Hz : 148,5MHz (frame packing format)
- 1920x1080 @ 85Hz : 2 x 126MHz = 252MHz (GTF blanking, didn't find numbers for CVT-RB blanking used for the other examples)
- 1920x1080 @ 120Hz : 297MHz

So it may be possible that the Panasonic VT25 is able to do 1080p @ 80-90Hz since it should need less than 252MHz which is quite close to the 225MHz maximum bandwith of current HDMI transmission chips. It's left to be seen if modes with higher frequencies than 60Hz can be obtained in 1080p though, because I think it would need dual-link HDMI because single-link is limited to 165MHz. All in all, I think it's now clear that 1080 @ 120Hz (60Hz per eye) is not possible on these TVs since as it has been confirmed by Panasonic itself.


Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:58 pm
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Cross Eyed!

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Guys I have the VT20 model, which allows to check at any moment the mode and the hz it is running at. I bet the VT25 has a similar button on the remote. I do, however not understand how you can get 30hz per eye to work. So far I've been unable to switch to such a mode. Maybe if rivatuner is used, otherwise the display automatically switches to 24hz when 3d at 1080p is turned on and if an unsupported mode is set the game either crashes or all you get is no image.


Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:39 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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The pictures I posted previously include the VT25 remote Info button mode display (TV mode bar at the top), as well as independent Ignition Performance panel information (text on upper left side, partially covered by the TV mode bar). After setting the Ignition Control Panel to its AMD HDMI 1.4a setting, the HDTV connection was plug-and-play for me. The VT25 seemed to immediately recognize the source format and start displaying 3D as shown in the pictures.

Fredz - thanks for the information about current generation HDMI communication chip limitations. I was wondering where some of the system constraints might be.


Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:11 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Note that the 6970 is a new hardware design, only released in Dec 2010 (see http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-6950-6970-review/1), so only the 6950, 6970, or 6990 cards may have capabilities described in this topic thread (not sure). The guru of 3D's article authors did not mention anything about hardware interface bandwidth limitations. I am still waiting for an AMD response.


Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:32 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Well, I received a response from AMD today. As several members have pointed out, all current cards with HDMI 1.4a interfaces (including AMD 6000 series) are limited by current HDMI PHY constraints, supporting either a maximum of 24 Hz per eye at 1080p resolution or up to 60 Hz per eye at 720p.

Evidently, I am seeing a graphics display whose primary constraint is the HDMI communication channel, not the game rendering rate (actually, the rendering rate reported by Ignition is higher than the apparent 24 Hz channel limit for almost every game I have played). I am seeing movie-rate game video being driven by 60 Hz controller interaction/responsiveness and displayed at 60 Hz. From a human factors perspective, it may be difficult for MOST people to distinguish this operation from true 1080P 60 Hz operation - I certainly was not sure what I was seeing.

The game play looks great for games like Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, providing great immersion in a very responsive environment.

Update:

It appears that, for those games where Ignition renders more than the 24 FPS limit, enabling Vsync slows Ignition to around 24 FPS (interesting validation of the HDMI channel limit), and the graphics quality improves a little (more scene stability within the frames - I never saw much tearing). Enabling Vsync is probably the preferred setting for games with high rendering rates - that is, above 24 FPS.

This (great) 1080P24 performance I am experiencing may be the capability limit of most current 3D HDTVs (including 2011 models), for those sets with strict adherence to HDMI 1.4 specs. Given my deeper understanding of the limitations of current generation hardware (including my 6970), I again contacted Panasonic tech support at ask about the VT25's ability to accept a true 1080P60 3D source signal. I received a different response this time - I was told that I was asking for "proprietary information".

Update 2 (5/2/2011):

Based upon several recent TriDef forum discussions, it appears that AMD may not yet provide HD3D support for multi-GPU (CrossFire) systems, including their new 6990 card. It sounds like a single, overclocked 6970 may provide the best HD3D performance for now.

As a point of reference, I have an overclocked 6970 (920 MHz seems to be OK), cooled by Arctic Cooling Accelero XTREME Plus. The card is very quiet, even with the fixed 50% fan speed, and it never seems to rise above 50 C during active gaming. For almost every game I have played, the 6970 renders beyond the 1080P24 HDMI 1.4a limitations - so no more performance improvement is possible - even with CrossFire. The only game I have encountered that I cannot set to max graphics settings is Dragon Age 2. Using the DA2 high resolution texture update, the full DX11 settings start to cause some performance problems - but the DX10 settings are good.


Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:45 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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For more 3D gaming product comparison and candid feedback, you may want to review this DDD forum discussion thread: http://www.ddd.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1230, especially Jude's and my comments.

I continue to actively game using AMD's HD3D 1080p24 mode, with display, graphics driver, and Ignition software set to 1080p, 60 Hz. My Accelero XTREME cooled HD6970 has done a good job with 3D rendering rates on recent DX11 games like Crysis 2, FEAR 3, and Dragon Age 2, after following this suggestion for Catalyst settings: http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=337224 (I manually limit tesselation to 6X).

However, if I were to expand to a 3D surround display(3x1), I would need to migrate to a water cooled chassis. Using current graphics hardware, a HD6990 or GTX590 scale solution is required (both cards can overheat if only air cooled). Note that AMD/DDD do not support CrossFire or either of these high end cards.

Ideally, a good (from human factors perspective) 3D surround configuration would consist of 3 interconnected 1080x1920 (portrait orientation) low energy displays. The relative widths of active (screen) and inactive (bezel and panel frame) areas would need to incorporated into the surround rendering software for display projection offsets. DDD does not support this, and NVIDIA may not support portrait orientation.


Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:44 am
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